Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

MarineReconDad — Wed, 06 May 2009 18:17:02 GMT

President Obama is distancing himself from the National Day of Prayer by nixing a formal early morning service and not attending a large Catholic prayer breakfast the next morning.

All Mr. Obama will do for the National Day of Prayer, which is Thursday, is sign a proclamation honoring the day, which originated in 1952 when Congress set aside the first Thursday in May for the observance.

For the past eight years, President George W. Bush invited selected Christian and Jewish leaders to the White House East Room, where he typically would give a short speech and several leaders offered prayers.

Obama White House press secretary Robert Gibbs said Tuesday that the president is simply reverting back to pre-Bush administration practice.

"Prayer is something the president does every day," he said. "We're doing a proclamation, which I know that many administrations in the past have done."

Pressed by reporters as to the lack of a formal ceremony, Mr. Gibbs said the proclamation was Mr. Obama's choice.

"That's the way the president will publicly observe National Prayer Day - privately, he'll pray as he does every day," Mr. Gibbs said.

Shirley Dobson, chairwoman of the National Day of Prayer Committee, said the group was "disappointed in the lack of participation by the Obama administration."

"At this time in our country's history, we would hope our president would recognize more fully the importance of prayer," said Mrs. Dobson, who occupied a prominent seat in the front row for the ceremonies during the Bush administration.

Although the annual East Room events started with Mr. Bush, President Reagan hosted a Rose Garden event in 1982 and President George H.W. Bush scheduled a breakfast in 1989.

President Clinton did not host any special observances, according to the National Day of Prayer task force.

Some evangelicals said they were not surprised by Mr. Obama's decision.

"For those of us who have our doubts about Obama's faith, no, we did not expect him to have the service," said Wendy Wright, president of Concerned Women for America. "But as president, he should put his own lack of faith aside and live up to the office."

Referencing a remark the president made at a recent press conference in Turkey that Americans "do not consider ourselves a Christian nation," she added: "That was projecting his own beliefs, but not reflecting what the majority of Americans feel. It's almost like Obama is trying to remake America into his own image. This is not a rejection of Shirley Dobson; it's a rejection of the concept that America is a spiritual nation and its foundation is Judeo-Christian."

David Brody, White House correspondent for the Christian Broadcasting Network, said in a column that, "within the conservative evangelical community, there was never any real expectation that the White House would hold an event."

However, the White House did host an April 9 Passover Seder for family and friends - the first time a president has hosted that Jewish religious meal.

But the president passed up the fifth annual National Catholic Prayer Breakfast, scheduled for the Washington Hilton and expected to have 1,300 participants.

Joe Cella, a spokesman for the effort, said the White House never asked for Mr. Obama to attend.

Mr. Bush did ask to come and always made a few brief remarks. But the new president, Mr. Cella said, would not have been allowed to speak because of a 2004 directive from the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops saying that public figures who have taken positions opposing Catholic doctrine should not be publicly honored.

"We'd host him graciously, but we'd not give him a platform to speak," Mr. Cella said.

All major presidential candidates were invited to attend last year, he added, but none responded.

For this year's prayer breakfast, Catholic members of the administration have been invited. They include Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr., Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius, Housing and Urban Development Secretary Shaun Donovan and Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano.

None has responded, Mr. Cella said.

The keynote speech will be given by Archbishop Raymond Burke, the former St. Louis prelate who now heads the Signatura, the Vatican's top court. He has recommended that pro-choice Catholic politicians such as Mrs. Sebelius not be allowed to receive Communion.

Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia is scheduled to speak.

Despite the White House snub, National Day of Prayer ceremonies are still slated from 9 a.m. to noon in the Cannon House Office Building on Capitol Hill. Speakers include former NFL all-pro running back Shaun Alexander and Dick Eastman of Every Home for Christ.

An estimated 40,000 coordinators and volunteers will host locally organized events nationwide at courthouses, state capitols, city halls, parks and school flagpoles.

Nathan Diament, an Orthodox Jewish leader who has attended National Day of Prayer events in the East Room, said co-religionists should not find fault with the president.

"While some will no doubt criticize the Obama White House for this decision, we think that is inappropriate," he said, "and, moreover, not in keeping with the purpose of the observance which is to unify Americans through a national moment of reflection and aspiration to higher purposes."

Last fall, the Wisconsin-based Freedom From Religion Foundation sued Mrs. Dobson and the Bush administration over the National Day of Prayer.

The lawsuit, which has been changed to name Mr. Obama and Mr. Gibbs, the press secretary, says state governors and the U.S. government should not follow task-force directives on themes, wording, prayers and Scriptures for the event.

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

stevor — Wed, 06 May 2009 23:16:52 GMT

He is afraid (because he's a community organizer and community organizers don't want to make anybody feel excluded from the organization, even when they are different) to be proud of what he is. He doesn't have to make a big deal of it. It's just that what this country has become is a bunch of weenies who are so afraid to be called, "haters" just because they disagree.

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

Moosemose — Wed, 06 May 2009 23:41:24 GMT

Tippy, O'Bummer didn't have to specify any "Religion Rituals" they would observe just as Past Leaders haven't, just to Pray to Ur Own Personal Deity!!! Considering O'Bummer SWORE during the Election he was a "Christian", he should KNOW the VALUE of PRAYER!!! BTW Tippy, God is NOT the Author of CONFUSION according to Scripture it's Satan!!! Scripture also says to "Make a Joyfull Noise unto the Lord"!!! I think U could use some more time between the pages dear. And if Ur going to Quote Scripture, how about this:

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in by the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many are they that enter in thereby.
Mat 7:14 For narrow is the gate, and straitened the way, that leadeth unto life, and few are they that find it.
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 By their fruits ye shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but the corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Therefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

John

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

MarineReconDad — Thu, 07 May 2009 00:59:28 GMT

Because he is the LEADER of this COUNTRY! You have spent the last 10 months pathetically supporting this imposter of a Christan and a President. If he is embarrased to lead the people of a CHRISTAN nation, (unless you too deny that we are?), then this usurper should be replaced with some one who is not embarrased of Christan America! He has not taken one stand for the protection of the unborn, yet he will protect the life of terrorist responsible for the murders of innocents!

He will not speak with Netanyaho, yet will listen to Chavez and Achmadinejad!

And, he will sit and listen to America be berated by dicatators, yet cannot spend an hour with American religious leaders? Why? Maybe, he needs to meet Biden for another burger break!

Mark my words Tippy, before this is over, he will want to pray to God to help him!

Because Allah and his Muslim friends won't be able to!

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

Tippy — Thu, 07 May 2009 04:00:17 GMT

I would like to thank all of you Christians for your comments. Everything makes sense now :) All I can say is thank God that I am saved, and truly saved.

Be Blessed

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

Tippy — Thu, 07 May 2009 04:20:55 GMT

Moosemose

Thank you for the bible lesson, but I am well versed. I think that I would rather do what the bible says and not just quote it. We have to live what we preach.

Matthew 22:37-39 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

I John 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

From what I can see in all of your preaching that you come up short when it comes to the commandments.

Proverbs 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

IN OTHER WORDS JESUS IS SAYING PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH!

Be Blessed

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

MarineReconDad — Thu, 07 May 2009 09:59:18 GMT

Tippy,

"Do not hide your light under a bushel!"

"Before the cock crows, you will deny me three times!"

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

Tippy — Fri, 08 May 2009 05:12:25 GMT

MRC,

Are you claiming to be Jesus now?

My light shines everyday. I don't go around trying to plan the down fall of my brother. Can you say the same? You have already denied Jesus when you post all of this hatred 24/7.

Did he not say to do unto others as you would have them do unto you?

What about love your neighbor as you do yourself? If you are not following Jesus then you are denying him. Don't preach to me, preach to yourself.

Be Blessed

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

Amber760 — Fri, 08 May 2009 07:05:41 GMT

Matthew 6:5-13: And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say unto you, they have their reward. But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. But when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words. Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, As we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, But deliver us from the evil one. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.
Introduction

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

Amber760 — Fri, 08 May 2009 07:16:48 GMT

"Yes, if you forgive other people for the things they do wrong, then your Father in heaven will also forgive you for the things you do wrong. But if you don't forgive the wrong things people do to you, then your Father in heaven will not forgive the wrong things you do." (ERV)

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

Amber760 — Fri, 08 May 2009 07:21:10 GMT

Are you saying that Obama is the antichrist? Cause the Father told me the antichrist has yet to come.

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

Amber760 — Fri, 08 May 2009 07:27:00 GMT

There is something in the bible that I know you know. Maybe it just slipped your mind but God said not to argue about religion. It is okay to quote scripture but arguing about the bible does no good. Not when people do not want to learn or know about the Father. This is a waste of time these people are not going to changes their views. They lived all their life thinking they know all the answers and everybody else is wrong. I know you love a good debate. But save it for some one who wants to know about God or just pray for them. You have done all you can the only one that can change their views is the Lord Himself, pray for them instead.

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

Moosemose — Fri, 08 May 2009 13:27:15 GMT

No Obummer is Not the A.C., more like John the Baptist. Scripture says there will be many A.C. & they will each play a role in "Setting the Stage" for "THE Anti- Christ" who is yet to come. Of course "THE A.C." will "Mimic" Christ in Every Way & I think what we see here is more like "John the Baptist" preparing the way for "THE A.C.". We are seeing a Total Upheaval of our Political System getting it ready for intigration into a "One World Govt." just as Rome in Christs' time. Good is being called Evil & Evil is portrayed as Good. We have set ourselves above God & deny Him preferring "Mans Science" which is Folly. John

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

MarineReconDad — Sat, 09 May 2009 00:32:16 GMT

Don't confuse hatred with disgust! Publicly honoring the National Day of Prayer is obviously the territory of Republicans and not Democrats!Sad!

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

Amber760 — Sun, 10 May 2009 01:37:42 GMT

Can you tell me where it says that in the bible? I know it does but I just do not know where.

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

Moosemose — Sun, 10 May 2009 02:38:36 GMT

Sure no problem. Here is a very short Doctrine on the Anti-Christ. Enjoy! John

DOCTRINE OF THE ANTICHRIST

A. Definition.
   1. The Greek preposition "anti" has a dual connotation:
       a. Against.
       b. Instead of, in place of.
   2. The connotation for this study is that it means conflict; therefore
against is the primary meaning. An antichrist is someone against the Lord.

B. Antichrist in the Church Age.
   1. In the Church Age, antichrist refers to any believer who resides
and functions in the cosmic dynaspheres of Satan. The Church Age is the
only time to use the divine dynasphere to avoid being an antichrist.
   2. Antichrist is synonymous with the "enemy of the cross" in Phil
3:18, "the enemy of God" in James 4:4, and "the hater of God" in Jn 15:23.
These believers are called antichrist in 1 Jn 2:22, 4:3; 2 Jn 7; 1 Jn 2:18.

C. The Antichrist in the Tribulation.
   1. The Antichrist in the Tribulation is one person, an unbeliever
functioning under the cosmic systems. He sells himself out to the devil
more than any other person. He has seven or eight titles in the Bible.
(The believer in the Church Age living in the cosmic systems is no better
than the Antichrist of the Tribulation.)
   2. The Antichrist is one of two great dictators who emerge in the
Tribulation. He is the beast out of the sea (the sea of nations), the
Gentile ruler of the revived Roman Empire. He is also the leader of
ecumenical religion in the Tribulation. He is called by many titles.
       a. "The man of sin, the son of perdition," 2 Thes 2:3.
       b. "The beast from the sea," Rev 13:1-10 (his political title);
"the beast," Rev 17:8-13 (his religious title); and "the beast on whom the
scarlet woman rides."
       c. "The little horn," Dan 7:8-9, 19-26.
       d. "The abomination of desolation," Mt 24:15. A statue of him is
put up in the temple at Jerusalem, a sign for all believers to flee to the
mountains.
       e. "The prince that shall come," Dan 9:26-7.
       f. "The prince of Tyre," Ezek 28:1-10. He is given this title
because of the Phoenician Satan worship.
       g. "The feet of the image," Dan 2:31-45.
   3. The Jewish dictator might also be called an antichrist because he
passes himself off as Christ (using anti to mean "instead of Christ"). He
is also has many titles.
       a. "Dan the serpent," Gen 49:16-18.
       b. "The false prophet," Rev 16:13, 19:20, 20:10.
       c. "The willful king," Dan 11:36-40.

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

Tippy — Sun, 10 May 2009 03:26:12 GMT

What in the world does this have to do with President Obama? First of all he is a believer and a Christian. Secondly, it's too many people that hate him for him to be the anti-christ.

If we go by this short doctrine, half of the posters out here on this site is the anti-christ.

When the anti-christ does come, just be sure that we are right with Jesus when he raptures his church and then we won't have to worry about the anti-christ.

If some people attitude does not change, there will be a lot of folks running to the mountains and begging them to fall on them. God will not tolerate hatred in the hearts of his children.

If anyone is harbouring any malice or have an ought against his fellowman, they had better get it right and soon.

I don't plan to see the anti-christ, so I can't tell you who he is and what he will look like. My goal is heaven, that is why I love the brethen, there is no other way, saith the Lord.

Be Blessed

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

silver's — Sun, 10 May 2009 03:31:54 GMT

Well said Amber760. Now how about we concentrate in a lesson in economics so we can continue to practice faiths. This is where the blinders come off....or not.No America or ideals no freedoms or wills. There is nowhere left to go anymore.

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

Amber760 — Sun, 10 May 2009 04:50:52 GMT

Thank you Moosemose now was that hard to get along with a left winger?

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

Amber760 — Sun, 10 May 2009 05:00:13 GMT

Now was that hard to be civilized to a left winger? All we ask for is the same respect you would give each other. But it seems that you guys made all the rules. But when you play the rules should be fair. And I have not seen fair that much. So I almost became a right winger myself but thinks to United California Bank and my Court appointed Guardians I'm a Democrat all the way. You see I am well educated and could have made something out of my life straight A's in school my dad had property's and money but the bank and my guardians stole everything and they were right wingers that did this to me so excuse me if I get a little rude at times I just can not forget all the abuse I recieved from right wingers. this is what happened after my dad died.

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

silver's — Sun, 10 May 2009 05:09:16 GMT

I'm not against left people..just left policys. I hope it turns out well for you. Some of the greatest folks lose everything and come out better. Be well and I mean that.

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

MarineReconDad — Sun, 10 May 2009 12:09:35 GMT

So Tippy, I want to understand this. When people recognize the anti-Christ for what he is, they should remain silent? Because they were not deceived as others are? I don't think Jesus will be very tolerant of those believers who remain silent and permit the anti-Christ to go about Satan's business unopposed, because they didn't want to offend the anti-Christ! The Great Deceiver will take the form of a man, so by your definition if anyone feels malice against him they will be then sanctioned against by Jesus. If we know not the day or hour, how do you know you have not seen the anti-Christ?

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

Tippy — Mon, 11 May 2009 06:15:51 GMT

Do you have any proof that President Obama is the anti-christ? If he is not the anti-Christ and he professes to be a Christian do you think that God would be pleased with you falsely accusing him? If I knew he was the anti-christ, yes I would definitely speak out and join in the fight but I will not falsely accuse someone of being the anti-christ just because I disagree with their politics.

Be Blessed

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

quixoticjack — Mon, 11 May 2009 06:27:01 GMT

QJ: And how many previous administrations did the same? Was it just something Bush did?

--------------------

1808 Thomas Jefferson

"Fasting and prayer are religious exercises; the enjoining them an act of discipline. Every religious society has a right to determine for itself the time for these exercises, and the objects proper for them, according to their own particular tenets; and right can never be safer than in their hands, where the Constitution has deposited it. ...civil powers alone have been given to the President of the United States and no authority to direct the religious exercises of his constituents."

------------------------------------

George W. Bush made a point of holding events on the National Day of Prayer in each year of his presidency. However, Bill Clinton did not hold any such events during his time in office, and George H.W. Bush and Ronald Reagan each hosted special events for the day only once during their respective administrations.

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

Amber760 — Mon, 11 May 2009 21:09:39 GMT

President Bush had to have a prayer meeting to ask God to forgive him for all the bad things he did while he was President. Like Adultery that is why his wife is no longer with him cause of his affair with Rice and all the other things he did wrong. You can not condemn someone just because his beliefs are different if Obama would rather Pray with his family alone then let him.

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

Moosemose — Tue, 12 May 2009 02:31:00 GMT

Here's the "Test" according to Scripture. If the person can give their "Testimony" as to coming to the Lord! So tell us Tippy/Amber (whenever U decide who U are) as Ur his "Guardian" how did he come to be a "Christian"??? John

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

Tippy — Tue, 12 May 2009 02:59:21 GMT

MooseMose,

President Obama is of age to give his own testimony, but since you asked me about it, please see below.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2008/januaryweb-only/104-32.0.html?start=2

"I believe in the redemptive death and resurrection of Jesus Christ." Interview by Sarah Pulliam and Ted Olsen

You've talked about your experience walking down the aisle at Trinity United Church of Christ, and kneeling beneath the cross, having your sins redeemed, and submitting to God's will. Would you describe that as a conversion? Do you consider yourself born again?

"I am a Christian, and I am a devout Christian. I believe in the redemptive death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I believe that that faith gives me a path to be cleansed of sin and have eternal life. But most importantly, I believe in the example that Jesus set by feeding the hungry and healing the sick and always prioritizing the least of these over the powerful. I didn't 'fall out in church' as they say, but there was a very strong awakening in me of the importance of these issues in my life. I didn't want to walk alone on this journey. Accepting Jesus Christ in my life has been a powerful guide for my conduct and my values and my ideals".

How can someone else determine if anyone is a Christian. That is personal between that individual and God. Only God knows whether Obama is a Christian not man. If he says that he is, who are we to say that he isn't.

Be Blessed

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

quixoticjack — Tue, 12 May 2009 03:00:59 GMT

as Ur his "Guardian" how did he come to be a "Christian"???.........................Qj: Whether or not he's a Christian should not be of any kind of importance. Is he a good person? Decent? Responsible? Loves his country, its citizens, his family, his friends. There should be no concern as to what his private beliefs are, or aren't. Lincoln wasn't a Christian, and poll after poll, ranks him as the number one president in America's history. It is the tenor of the person, that person's core that is relevant.

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

silver's — Tue, 12 May 2009 03:42:58 GMT

QJ! An honest assesment. Now where is this guy and how do we get him to run? I don't see a whole lotta good in DC. The good I do see isn't all that good either. Glimmers here and there but NO guiding light. Right or left side and the middle of the roaders lean with the wind.

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

quixoticjack — Tue, 12 May 2009 04:10:08 GMT

QJ! An honest assesment. Now where is this guy and how do we get him to run? ....................QJ: In two years, minimum, we'll all know. But expecting a miracle man now, goes nowhere. So far, so good, say the majority of Americans.....

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

Moosemose — Tue, 12 May 2009 04:13:10 GMT

In the days before the South Carolina primary, he is driving efforts to speaking with media to emphasize his Christian beliefs. His campaign also sent out a recent mailer portraying the candidate with his head bowed in prayer and says that he will be guided by prayer when he is in office .

The senator from Illinois spoke with Sarah Pulliam and Ted Olsen today about his faith, abortion, and the evangelical vote .

So, what happened to cause his "Turn Around" from "Portraying Himself Bowed in Prayer" to Canceling the long standing "Celebration of Our National Day of Prayer"??? Seems to me, the more people Praying for the "Office" the more "Guidance" he could receive??? According to U, he has a right to Pray alone. This is true, but Scripture tells us to Pray for those in Authority over us & by him Detering this he Robs us of Our Blessing (for Praying for him & Country) & once again does Nothing to Bolster the very "Christianity" he espouses!!! He has shown NO LOVE through Any Actions for Christianity & acts as if ASHAMED of Christianity. And if U think he should keep his & Ur "Christian Faith" out of Politics, Why are U so Ashmed??? Where is Ur "First Love"??? Jesus wasn't Ashamed to Die for All Mankind & will Not Deney His Flock before His Father but says that those who Deny Him before Men, He Will Deny before the Father!!! Do U think he can guide us better on his own than the Scripture can??? Why do U put him Before the "Word of God"??? I'm sorry but Obummer shows great Instability & very poor Choices in Everything he has done so far. So we Pray every day that "Gods' Will be Done" whether Obummer likes it or not! John

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

silver's — Tue, 12 May 2009 04:20:16 GMT

Not TOO awful majority. Do YOU really think the way it's looking economically QJ we have two years..the world isn't on our time schedule we do have people who hate us and want everything we are. I really am convinced this isn't good. BUT it's nice not to quibble and insult with you. Trillions...........wow that's a lot of dreams being mortgaged on an idea like socialisim. Peace in our lifetime? Expensive paper this money we print. Be well.

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

Tippy — Tue, 12 May 2009 04:43:32 GMT

MooseMoses-"This is true, but Scripture tells us to Pray for those in Authority over us & by him Detering this he Robs us of Our Blessing (for Praying for him & Country)"

Be honest with yourself and God, would you really have prayed for him? I remember his inaguration when he had ministers of every faith to come and pray and what happened? It got blown out of porpotion. Some didn't like Pastor Rick Warren. Some didn't like the Preacher that did the benediction. Some didn't like this and some didn't like that.

Why did he have to have a ceremony for you to pray for him? If the bible tells you to pray for those in authority, did it say give a program so that you can pray? That should be a daily thing. Do we need a national day to remind us to pray? Do we only pray on the national day of prayer? If we do, may God have mercy on our souls.

What was you robbed of? Why should he have to prove to man that he is a Christian? As long as he pleases God, he should not have to give a program to satisfy the curiosity of man.

Is that what you were waiting on? Jesus told us not to be as the Scribes and Pharasees but to go into our secret closet. If the secret closet is good enough for God, why do man require more?

Proverbs 27:20 Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.

Be Blessed

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

stevor — Tue, 12 May 2009 06:02:16 GMT

No, Obummer isn't the Anti-Christ, though he probably would take the job if it were offered to him. It's more likely that the Anti-Christ is pulling his puppet strings.

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

stevor — Tue, 12 May 2009 06:08:04 GMT

amber760 - just because right wingers did you wrong, it's a bit silly to dump all right wingers in the same boat. So it seems, you just have bad relatives. Wait until you see what rules Obummer has for you!

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

stevor — Tue, 12 May 2009 06:16:22 GMT

Yes, it's the "tenor" of a person. And since Obummer has proven time and time again that he's a liar and more interested in paying back the bankers for getting he elected instead of NOT doing the bailout as 80% of the people were against the bailout, Obummer is a louse!

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

quixoticjack — Tue, 12 May 2009 06:25:08 GMT

Not TOO awful majority.

QJ: So far, a very healthy majority that's understanding the magnitude of the problems. And a healthier majority who say they even "like" the man, some odd 13% who say they don't.

Do YOU really think the way it's looking economically QJ we have two years.

QJ: Before what? Do you think that a snap of the fingers is going to fix things overnight? The Republicans, the other week, announced their solution--a freeze. Two days later afterward, they put that idea on the shelf. A "freeze" during a recession! We have time because we have no choice. The only fear I have is that it's not enough due to political reasons. Most economists are on board, and quite a few suggest what's being thrown at the fire should be doubled. Get it over with. But I fear Obama will do as Roosevelt did, capitulate at wrong time. We'll see.

.the world isn't on our time schedule

QJ: In fact, they are. We're still the driving engine of all the world's economies. The trick is to get them on board with their own stimulus plans in conjunction with ours.

we do have people who hate us and want everything we are.

QJ: As soon as the election occurred, a lot of that problem subsided and was replaced by new attitudes, new hopes, a new reality. And no, those who do hate us couldn't care less about what or who we are, as long as we are not in their backyards. A revamping of America's role will do wonders as far as others hating America.

BUT it's nice not to quibble and insult with you.

QJ: A tad confusing. I generally try to make points, back them up, and rebut. We're not doing too badly....

Trillions...........wow that's a lot of dreams being mortgaged on an idea like socialisim.

QJ: This "socialism" idea doesn't fly. Any time you have taxes, you are going to have forms of socialism. Social Security, Medicare, Student Loans, unemployment benefits, safefy nets like welfare, etc. And in emergencies, as we have at present, who or what else can step in? It is the government, i.e., the citizens who've paid their taxes. Even one of the contributing persons who got us into this mess, Alan Greenspan, has said that bank nationalization may be necessary. But the whole shebang revolves around "temporary." And temporary it will be, if it occurs. It's a simple concept, you have to do what you have to do. Will it work? Who knows, but not doing anything like Republicans espouse sure won't solve anything.

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

quixoticjack — Tue, 12 May 2009 06:28:56 GMT

Yes, it's the "tenor" of a person. And since Obummer has proven time and time again that he's a liar

QJ: Why don't you list the times and times again?

and more interested in paying back the bankers for getting he elected instead of NOT doing the bailout as 80% of the people were against the bailout, Obummer is a louse!

QJ: Do you care to even understand that Bush instigated the bail out, along with Paulson, Bush's Treasuary Secretary?

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

quixoticjack — Tue, 12 May 2009 06:31:03 GMT

Wait until you see what rules Obummer has for you!

QJ: You seem to know of them.....so, what are they?

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

quixoticjack — Tue, 12 May 2009 06:33:59 GMT

No, Obummer isn't the Anti-Christ, though he probably would take the job if it were offered to him. It's more likely that the Anti-Christ is pulling his puppet strings.

QJ: Now why would someone say this sort of thing unless he or she could back it up? Can the sophomoric assertion be supported? If so, then it should be followed up with all the reasons for the assertion.

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

MarineReconDad — Tue, 12 May 2009 10:33:34 GMT

Tippy,all you Obamaites are the same, do you have proof? If I said yes, then you would ask how, or simply deny as you did with the fraudulent birth certificate! You all do not want the TRUTH, you can't handle the TRUTH! Because the TRUTH isn't what you want to hear!

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

silver's — Tue, 12 May 2009 13:18:26 GMT

Ok QJ,

Who know but not doing anything like the republicans espouse sure won't solve anything?

Communisim dosen't work and if you think this experiment is temporary you need to think about some good history reads. This isn't temporary. Nothing the Gov does is temporary. Big government just gets bigger and all consuming. A little is nice locally... but bankrupting the bastion of freedoms and democracy and the power to back it up militarily is well. Blanked up and I hate it and so do a lot of other Americans with a vote. Not that many less than voted the Obamamiester in. Buyers remorse.

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

quixoticjack — Tue, 12 May 2009 17:38:23 GMT

Ok QJ, QJ: Who knows but not doing anything like the republicans espouse sure won't solve anything? SIL: Communisim dosen't work and if you think this experiment is temporary you need to think about some good history reads..................QJ: Well, give me some. But the relevant history is that of our own country. And what's even more germane is what is the working process of our system. Checks and balances, market place of ideas debates, a free press, free speech, Federalism, states' rights, separation of powers, all going against anything that paranoia can imagine..........SIL: This isn't temporary. Nothing the Gov does is temporary. Big government just gets bigger and all consuming....................QJ: When has that happened? And how do you think it would happen? This is the time to reflect and read about your own history. Nothing is perfect, but the process tries to balance, correct, and sustain. Nothing's perfect. Adjustments are always part of the scenario. SIL:... but bankrupting the bastion of freedoms and democracy and the power to back it up militarily is well...............QJ: You tend to deal in a lot of hyperbole without substance. It's almost the chicken Little approach. Nothing is occurring as you describe it, the description coming by way of arrested idealogy with examination. .....................SIL: Blanked up and I hate it and so do a lot of other Americans with a vote.................QJ: Right now those voters are sucking hind teat. But if they could get past simple idealogy, observe, think and not yell "fire" in a crowded theater, their dark-colored fogged up glasses might clear a bit..........SIL: Not that many less than voted the Obamamiester in. Buyers remorse..........QJ: And all of this after less than three months in office. But you, and others who gather in this dark gray area, espoused the same hue and cry after just one day in office, not able or willing to hold off until something tangible could be measured. Three months and the sky is falling, chicken littles running with heads cut off, thereby having no real suggestions, no real answers, and currently shrinking in numbers. As I said before, in two years, I could be along for the neo con ride of doomsday and woe, but I hope to be intelligent enough, responsible enough, to give the man time to fix the most god-awful predicaments we've ever known.

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

quixoticjack — Tue, 12 May 2009 17:48:03 GMT

MOOSE: So, what happened to cause his "Turn Around" from "Portraying Himself Bowed in Prayer" to Canceling the long standing "Celebration of Our National Day of Prayer"???................QJ: "Long standing" to mean during the Bush admisistration. What other administrations did what Bush did? I don't believe any of them did. So, Obama actually went to the longer standing tradition of no overt involvement. Reagan did it one year out of 8 years. The senior Bush did it one year out of 4 years. Clinton didn't do it any years. Other presidents did not participate incorrectly like G.W.

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

quixoticjack — Tue, 12 May 2009 17:56:48 GMT

MOOSE: Seems to me, the more people Praying for the "Office" the more "Guidance" he could receive??? ..................QJ: Number one, praying is redundant, since God already has a plan, already knows what is what. Number two, it becomes complexly absurd when there are over 133,000 denominations and sects in Christianity, alone. Then, throw in Mormons, whom Christians don't believe are Christians; add to the mix, Muslims, praying, and all of the other sundry prayers of every kind of nuance and fringe belief systems. It's like throwing you know what up against a wall and hoping something sticks. The National Day of Prayer was never meant to be celebrated in the bowels of Washington, D.C., but rather a recognition that prayer is welcomed as a private venture and is understood that people feel strongly about it. Apart from that, a prayer gathering has no place at the government table.

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

quixoticjack — Tue, 12 May 2009 18:03:22 GMT

MOOSE: According to U, he has a right to Pray alone. This is true, but Scripture tells us to Pray for those in Authority over us & by him ...........................QJ: There's nothing stopping anyone, any group, any church, from praying any time for anything they wish..................Detering this he Robs us of Our Blessing (for Praying for him & Country)..................QJ: Same scenario: any time, anywhere, anyone can pray all they wish to................. & once again does Nothing to Bolster the very "Christianity" he espouses!!!.........................QJ: That's because he's not supposed to bolster ANY religion as president. Scary that people are so ethnocentrically ignorant, not to understand the Constitution, not to comprehend the separation of church and state, and for some odd reason, not know that religion is private. Religion and any form of government do not, and should not, mix.

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

quixoticjack — Tue, 12 May 2009 18:19:58 GMT

MOOSE: He has shown NO LOVE through Any Actions for Christianity & acts as if ASHAMED of Christianity..........

......QJ: And the support, examples, back up?..................

MOOSE: And if U think he should keep his & Ur "Christian Faith" out of Politics, Why are U so Ashmed???...................

....QJ: The Constitution demands that he keep his faith out of politics...................

MOOSE: Where is Ur "First Love"??? Jesus wasn't Ashamed to Die for All Mankind.................

.QJ: Jesus didn't really die, since he was up and about in less then three days, eating broiled fish, poofing in and out of walls, then preaching for 40 days on a the side of a mountain. In order to be a real "sacrifice", the sacrificed must stay sacrificed.

MOOSE: & will Not Deney His Flock before His Father but says that those who Deny Him before Men, He Will Deny before the Father!!!..............

...QJ: Jesus was getting denied by no one, since those who believe in Jesus could invoke his name in prayer, and surely did so..............

MOOSE: Do U think he can guide us better on his own than the Scripture can???..............

.QJ: How in the world can scripture guide what to do with the economy? What to do with health insurance? What to do with two wars? What to do with Gitmo? What's in Scripture that can figure out anything that government has to deal with?...........................

MOOSE: Why do U put him Before the "Word of God"???....................

QJ: This is a silly question since the WORD has nothing to do with anything concerning how America is to get its leaking and sinking ship fixed...............

MOOSE: I'm sorry but Obummer shows great Instability...............

.QJ: Such as?................

MOOSE: & very poor Choices in Everything.................

QJ: Such as? Identify them. However, so far, so good, since he's addressing the problems, the wealth of problems left over from the most incompetent administration of all time, and new problems emerging......................

MOOSE: So we Pray every day that "Gods' Will be Done" whether Obummer likes it or not!........................

QJ: If there is a God, of course, his will be done. And of course, any and all can pray any time, all the time. And it might behoove those believers who know something about their Bibles to look up where Paul states that every government, past, present, and future, was and will be put in place by God. If that's true, then Obama, for now, is God's main man. Those who ridicule, who criticize, who abhor Obama, could be guilty of blasphemy and have a lot of explaining to do--on their knees.....God loves Obama.

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

Tippy — Tue, 12 May 2009 18:20:41 GMT

Marine Dad- "If I said yes, then you would ask how, or simply deny as you did with the fraudulent birth certificate!"

Here are nine views of the so called fraudulent birth certificate. Looks as real as anybody elses birth certificate that was born in the USA to me. I would say that Hawaii did a very good job faking it :) They should be prosecuted for fraud or stripped of their statehood, don't you think?

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html

http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_1.jpg

http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_2.jpg

http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_3.jpg

http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_4.jpg

http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_5.jpg

http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_6.jpg

http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_7.jpg

http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_8.jpg

http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_9.jpg

Be Blessed

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

Amber760 — Tue, 12 May 2009 18:25:40 GMT

Yeah, you right wingers are dumping on all us left wingers, on this website. You guys could not have a decent conversation if your life depended on it. So excuse me if I do not bow down to you. There are some who can show a little decency to people that are different then they are, but not many. And if you are one of those then I appologize for my rudeness. But I have only seen one other that shows respect to us on this website and if you want I will get the name of that person and you can ask him how we treated him with respect but if you guys want war than I'm game.

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

quixoticjack — Tue, 12 May 2009 18:29:37 GMT

You all do not want the TRUTH, you can't handle the TRUTH! Because the TRUTH isn't what you want to hear!.................QJ: Let's say that McCain had been elected. Where was he born? Panama. Would that have been a problem? In order to assign stringent legitimacy, some hoops and hurdles would have come into play. The far left may have kicked and screamed; the far right would say, no problem. But somewhere in the mix would have been what is reasonable and prudent. Regardless of the supposed problems with Obama's certificate, when put to a reasonable and prudent test, no problem, just as it would be reasonable and prudent that there would have been no problem with McCain. Cooler heads than the extremes would prevail. The TRUTH is that sometimes there are nuances and complexities and they must go through a process. Seldom does a black and white world exist.

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

Amber760 — Tue, 12 May 2009 19:10:04 GMT

You know Obama is only doing what people ask him to do, I know cause before he was signed in he had a website that let people come and tell him how they wanted the USA to be runned. I think it is great that we have someone up there that is willing to listen to what the tax payers have to say. And you can go there and put in any suggestion you want to tell him to. All the things he is doing now is because of what people asked him to do. Do you remember a while back people protesting how they wanted the Government to close Gitzmo? Well on the website that was what they also asked. If you have some better ideal and how he can close it down and keep the peace with everyone then you should go to that website and tell him. You see everything he is doing is what the people ask. I do not agree that they should let those suspected terrorist go on American soil. But if you have a better ideal on what he could do with them you should tell him. Because their Countries do not want them and his advisers probably does not know what to do with them. I admit he does not have the brightest advisers on his team.

Go here to give him any ideas you may have, and if you do not then you are probably afraid to.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/CONTACT/

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

quixoticjack — Tue, 12 May 2009 19:57:11 GMT

I do not agree that they should let those suspected terrorist go on American soil. ..................QJ: What better place than to have them locked up than in our own maximum security prisons? If elsewhere, just by being elsewhere, they'd be less secure. When people are "scared" to have them here, then terriosts have won. Lock 'em up here, so I'll know they'll be secure, in sight, in hand. We have all kinds of criminals incarcerated, many of them so dangerous and despicable that words cannot describe. Suggesting that we can or won't be responsible enough, or good enough, or competent enough is not a thing to admit. Whose prisoners are they? Ours. So, let's be intelligent enough to address and handle the problem, properly, without some kind of terrorist induced paranoia. Why would anyone be fearful of terrorists who are incarcerated? Where are the terrorists responsible for the first WTC bombing? In our prisons.

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

Moosemose — Wed, 13 May 2009 02:44:03 GMT

Besmirching my Integrity Tippy/Amber (U are so confused & confusing that I never know now who I'm speaking with)!!! I Do Pray for the Leaders of this country & I guess U must have been gone for A while as this Country IS IN A WORLD OF HURT as a Result of it's turning Away from God, so YES WE NEED TO OBSERVE A NATIONAL DAY OF PRAYER CEREMOUNOUSLY!!! That is what a LEADER WOULD DO, LEAD BY EXAMPLE!!! He should ask the Citizenry to Pray for Specific Things to have Gods' Help & Perfect Will be done!!! Instead he has "Robbed us of receiving a Special Blessing" for our effort!!! Funny in Ur attempt to "Twist Scripture" where Christ teaches about the "Arrogance of the Holy People" of His day, U try to turn His "Lesson" into a "Where U Should Pray Lesson" to "Justify" Obummers Actions & U TOTALLY MISSED CHRISTS LESSON!!! CHRIST TEACHES THESE GUYS GOT THEIR "15 MIN. OF FAME" IN THEIR ARROGANCE, BUT HOW GOD REWARDS US FOR BEING HUMBLE, GIVING ETERNAL BLESSINGS FOR ERNEST PRAYER!!! And Ur "Twist" on Proverbs U offered to what end??? I'll tell U this though, the "eyes of man are never safisfied" speaks in the Original Manuscripts of the "Natural Man, Lowely Base", NOT a "Christian" for we know a "Christian" is "Filled to Overflowing with the Holy Spirit"!!! U know, I think U Forget, that Obummer is a "Public Servant" who serves at the will of the People who CAN give him a "Pink Slip" at any time! He is NOT a "Savior" & so far, NONE of his "Programs" are Working. He can't even fill all the "Positions" that are open because his "Appointees (friends)" are CROOKS, TAX EVADERS & WORSE!!! So can U see yet Just Why it is so Important for him to do his Job & Lead Us by Example in Continuing the Established Ritual of National Prayer Day, NOT for "Him" (it's NOT ABOUT HIM) but the Nation!!! John

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

quixoticjack — Wed, 13 May 2009 03:22:21 GMT

it is so Important for him to do his Job & Lead Us by Example in Continuing the Established Ritual of National Prayer Day, NOT for "Him" (it's NOT ABOUT HIM) but the Nation!!!

QJ: It's certainly not about Christians or any other religion. It's about knowing and understanding the Constitution; it about knowing and understanding that there is NO tradition except for what the last Bush did. NO other president in history did what Bush did. Continuing to harp "tradition" is disingenous to a fault.

Then, how close does this echo the Middle Eastern idea of what government should entail, that religion should be at the head of the table and participate in governing decisions and policies?

How close, when blinkered people espouse and demand that their particular religion be accommodated and given special treatment and acknowlegement by the governing powers, is that entreaty to an American-styled Taliban?

Religion and the State must, with a capital "M", stay separated.

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

quixoticjack — Wed, 13 May 2009 03:30:33 GMT

I guess U must have been gone for A while as this Country IS IN A WORLD OF HURT as a Result of it's turning Away from God,

QJ: I wonder when this occurred? Over 90% of Americans claim a god belief. Churches everywhere. Even a TBN 24/7 or so, Jesus/God/Holy Ghost/Faith Healing/religious cartoons/religious movies/and lots and lots of testifying and hymn singing.

American is one of the, if not the, most religious nations on Earth....

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

Moosemose — Wed, 13 May 2009 03:54:28 GMT

QJ U waited till the very end to Expose what Ur Dilema/Prolem is. U associate with Obummer as a Soulmate because U don't even believe there is a God. Then U engage in trying to "Instruct me in the Scriptures"! That's Rich! Say QJ are U another "Clone" of Tippy/Amber that I'm responding to as the Style is so Repetitive & Remeniscent of that Multiple Personality. U see she/it doesn't have any Formal Biblical Training yet they espouse as U to be Gods' Representative for our Instruction??? Yet for some reason, I (the one with the D.D.) somehow can't seem to "Twist Scripture" in quite the right way to Justify Ur "Savior" Obummer. John

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

quixoticjack — Wed, 13 May 2009 04:10:20 GMT

QJ U waited till the very end to Expose what Ur Dilema/Prolem is. U associate with Obummer as a Soulmate because U don't even believe there is a God.

QJ: Which has nothing to do with nothing. I associate with EVERY leader who understands what the Founding Fathers were adamant about.

As for exposure, you've exposed big time, that you are ardently in favor of an American Taliban situation. You are what the Founding Fathers wanted others to be protected from.

Then U engage in trying to "Instruct me in the Scriptures"! That's Rich!

QJ: Well, what does Paul say about Obama?

Say QJ are U another "Clone" of Tippy/Amber that I'm responding to as the Style is so Repetitive & Remeniscent of that Multiple Personality.

QJ: You also expose yourself as the weakest kind of Christian, bankrupt of actual support for your positions, and unable to rebut any kind of rebuttal, instead the ad hominem surfaces. Instead of the message, your only recourse is to go after the messengers in a personal manner.

But the message remains. The Bible supports Obama. The "tradition" you keep lying about is/was not tradition as history displays. You don't comprehend the import and intent of your own Constitution regarding the separation of church and state. You cannot understand that your vent is similar, if not the same, as the Taliban in Afghanistan. Going after the messengers does nothing to the messages.

U see she/it doesn't have any Formal Biblical Training yet they espouse as U to be Gods' Representative for our Instruction???

QJ: No, you're the self-appointed spokesperson for God, which is the norm for the blinkered believer. You don't read to understand the Bible, you read it to believe.

Yet for some reason, I (the one with the D.D.) somehow can't seem to "Twist Scripture" in quite the right way to Justify Ur "Savior" Obummer.

QJ: That's because you ignore, won't address, even to rebut. What do you do with Paul's proclamation? Explain it, now that you've brayed about your expertise. Paul says that there is NO government, anywhere, any time, that has not been put in place by your God. Is Obama a part of this equation? You say no. Why do you say he's excepted?

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

Tippy — Wed, 13 May 2009 04:28:30 GMT

Hi MooseMose,

Who do you suppose the President would have asked everyone to pray to, since we are a multicultral nation? I am a Christian and I assume that you are to, but America is made up of other cultures who worship other gods. The Muslims worship Allah, there are Buddhists, ect.. and then you have atheists and agnostics who would be more than happy to file a law suit and take it all the way to the Supreme Court.

Who will lead the prayer? Will it be the Catholic Priest,the Baptist Preacher, the Pentecostal Bishop, the Muslim Shaikh, the Buddhist Bhikkhu ect....

I believe in God and you believe in God, but everbody do not believe as we believe. I wish to God that they did, but in reality all people don't. The President did the right thing to keep down confusion. This should not have stopped nobody from praying on their own. He signed the proclamation and that was good enough. If he had given a big ceremony, were you planning on attending? As upset as you are about the ceremony I just thought that I would put that question out there.

Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

It appears that this President knows the meaning of this teaching from the sermon on the mount better than those who are upset about the National Day of Prayer.

Be Blessed

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

Tippy — Wed, 13 May 2009 04:46:40 GMT

Hi MooseMose,

You boast that you have a D.D. but you cannot twist the scripture. No one is twisting scripture, everything that I write is strickly Bible. I admit that I do not have a D.D., but I do not need a D.D. I have something better, and he is a much better teacher. If you want to be able to learn and understand scripture, try getting the gift of the Holy Ghost. He will teach you all things and bring all things back to your rememberance. You see my friend, just because you have a D.D. does not make you and expert. A "D.D." without the Holy Ghost is just a piece of paper.

I have the real thing. The spirit within me cannot be lost, cannot be destroyed and does not fade away and wear out with time. It is genuine. I would say that I hold my own pretty good, for someone who has no formal Bible training like a D.D, wouldn't you say? I may not have a D.D. but I sure have a H.G.D (Holy Ghost Degree), that's the best kind to have my friend. Drop the D.D. and get GOD.

Be Blessed

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

quixoticjack — Wed, 13 May 2009 04:48:32 GMT

Grant, Ulysses S.

"Leave the matter of religion to the family altar, the church and the private schools, supported entirely by private contributions. Keep the church and state forever separated."

[Ulysses S. Grant, speech to the Army of the Tennessee, Des Moines,Iowa, Sept. 30, 1875]

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

quixoticjack — Wed, 13 May 2009 04:52:28 GMT

"Nothing is more dreaded than the national government meddling with religion."

[John Adams]

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

Tippy — Wed, 13 May 2009 04:53:25 GMT

I would like to add one other thought, I don't need a National Day of Prayer because everyday is a National Day of Prayer for me. I don't need a proclamation because Jesus is my procamation. He signed that in blood when he died on the cross. I don't need a ceremony because every day is a day of Thanksgiving.

Be Blessed

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

quixoticjack — Wed, 13 May 2009 04:58:14 GMT

Madison, James

"Nothwithstanding the general progress made within the two last centuries in favour of this branch of liberty, & the full establishment of it, in some parts of our Country, there remains in others a strong bias towards the old error, that without some sort of alliance or coalition between Gov' & Religion neither can be duly supported: Such indeed is the tendency to such a coalition, and such its corrupting influence on both the parties, that the danger cannot be too carefully guarded agst.. And in a Gov' of opinion, like ours, the only effectual guard must be found in the soundness and stability of the general opinion on the subject. Every new & successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance. And I have no doubt that every new example, will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Gov will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together;"

[James Madison, Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822, "The Writings of James Madison, Gaillard Hunt]

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

quixoticjack — Wed, 13 May 2009 05:01:56 GMT

Good night, Mrs. Jones.......:)

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

Tippy — Wed, 13 May 2009 05:02:30 GMT

:) lol

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

Moosemose — Wed, 13 May 2009 15:20:57 GMT

Adams, Madison, Grant, Amber, Tippy & QJ! WoW, what a line up to Defend & Protect Us from the "Evil Day of National Prayer"!!! I'll bet God gives U a "Gold Star"!!! And who knows what "Reward" Obummer will provide!!! Give me a BREAK!!!!!!!!!! A.T.& QJ U are all Proof Positive that U don't need Any Degree to be "Out Standing in Ur Field" cause Everybody can see Just how "Far Out" U All are!!! Emotion runs Ur Life & it no doubt is a real "Roller Coaster Ride" having to React to every GOOD thing (National Prayer Day) creating such "Drama" as the World has never seen on the "Daytime Soaps"!!! All to "Validate" Ur "Savior" Obummer. GET OVER IT, the Observance of "National Prayer Day" has Never & will Never Overcome the "Seperation of Church & State" & as I've said before shows yet Another "Character Flaw" in a guy who is Also "Out Standing in His Field"!!! U should be more worried that it goes to Prove he is "Anti Christian" to speak the Best of him especially when U factor in his "Anti Jewish Plan" to Divide up the country of Israel by sending Bidden over to "Make the Arrangements" so that they will "Fit" into the Scheme of the "One World Government" he is setting Us up for as well!!! John

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

Moosemose — Wed, 13 May 2009 16:12:44 GMT

Right & Wrong QJ. Paul is Right & God IS IN CONTROL!!! As God controls history, He knows the Possible & what will be the Actual. This Does Not cancel our "Free Will" to Turn Back to God at Any Time & in Fact it is Gods' Desire that we Turn from Our Evil ways & Worship Him Right Now! Wrong in that U don't Recognize that WE are under the Fifth Cycle of DISCIPLINE Right Now for turning from God. And to SUPPORT the Continuing Backwards Slide of our Country instead of getting our Country TOGETHER FOR PRAYER & SUPPLICATION TO GOD, IS WRONG & A PART OF THAT DISCIPLINE THAT GOD HAS PUT UPON US THROUGH THIS ADMINISTRATION!!! By not Recognizing this People with Ur Mindset will Prolong the Discipline!!! In oneway however this is not bad because it will usher in the Rapture & Tribulation Sooner bringing in Christs Millenial Rule & the eventual New Heavens & Earth! John

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

quixoticjack — Wed, 13 May 2009 17:17:58 GMT

Adams, Madison, Grant, Amber, Tippy & QJ! WoW, what a line up to Defend & Protect Us from the "Evil Day of National Prayer"!!!........................

.QJ: No, the protection is from people who don't know what separation of church and state is. The "Day" is/was recognized for what it is supposed to be.

It is not a day for religious fanatics to burst through government's door, fighting each other for the spotlight...............

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

quixoticjack — Wed, 13 May 2009 17:21:41 GMT

I'll bet God gives U a "Gold Star"!!! And who knows what "Reward" Obummer will provide!!! Give me a BREAK!!!!!!!!!! ...

.QJ: Why do you bet God supplies the "Gold Star"? And what will Obama provide.

When you use sarcasm, it should be intelligible.

As for a "break", there should be no compromise when it comes to separation of church and state.

Stay away, far, far away from the workings of government just as you'd wish government to stay away from your churches and religion practices.

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

quixoticjack — Wed, 13 May 2009 17:27:22 GMT

A.T.& QJ U are all Proof Positive that U don't need Any Degree to be "Out Standing in Ur Field" cause Everybody can see Just how "Far Out" U All are!!! ....

....QJ: Who would "everybody" be?

And as you grouped the factions together, you are then suggesting that "everybody" can see how wrong the Founding Fathers were, how Jefferson, Madison, Franklin, Adams, Washington, and most of the preceding presidents, got it all wrong, and "everybody" is on your Taliban-minded side.....................

Emotion runs Ur Life & it no doubt is a real "Roller Coaster Ride" having to React to every GOOD thing (National Prayer Day) creating such "Drama" as the World has never seen on the "Daytime Soaps"!!!....................

.QJ: Go back and reread your posts to find the clawing and whining hysteria as it collides with the Founding Fathers ideas and with common, practical knowledge......

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

quixoticjack — Wed, 13 May 2009 17:31:59 GMT

All to "Validate" Ur "Savior" Obummer...............

.QJ: If he's a savior, it'll be your butt saved, too.

But what he really is, is a person who has his sleeves rolled up and is elbow deep is trying to come up with the cures and solutions to the god-awful mess he was left, and the messes to come.

24/7 so far, whacking away at unbelievable problems.

Let's see how much time he devotes to a get-a-way like his predecessor was wont to do

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

quixoticjack — Wed, 13 May 2009 17:35:40 GMT

GET OVER IT, the Observance of "National Prayer Day" has Never & will Never Overcome the "Seperation of Church & State"

...QJ: It's a clear violation if the observance is a collected, orchestrated show conducted under the auspices of the government.

In order not to start down a slippery slope, don't put a foot over the edge.

The old ounce of prevention worth a pound of cure applies.

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

quixoticjack — Wed, 13 May 2009 17:39:44 GMT

as I've said before shows yet Another "Character Flaw" in a guy who is Also "Out Standing in His Field"!!! U should be more worried that it goes to Prove he is "Anti Christian" to speak the Best of him especially when U factor in his "Anti Jewish Plan" to Divide up the country of Israel by sending Bidden over to "Make the Arrangements" so that they will "Fit" into the Scheme of the "One World Government" he is setting Us up for as well!!!...........................

QJ: Around the bend, and gone again, is Moosemose......

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

Moosemose — Wed, 13 May 2009 17:40:08 GMT

Wrong person to talk about "Ur churches & religion" I don't support either & have said it many times here!!! True Christianity is a "One on One" between U & God!!!So it appears that U are "Skirting the "Issues" as U so oft do by not Addressing the "Disilpine Cycle" I have informed U of, merely "Choosing & Picking" those topics U think U know something about!!! Ur Premise on Prayer is SIMPLY WRONG!!! Our country Needs it as I have Outlined & present in depth here. U can "cut to the chase" by going to "L." for the "Solution"!!! Enjoy!!! John

DOCTRINE OF THE FIVE CYCLES OF DISCIPLINE

A. Background and Introduction.
     1. The dispensation of Israel began with the Exodus in B.C.
1441 and concluded with the birth of our Lord in 4 B.C.
     2. Therefore, most of the Old Testament Canon is devoted to
the study of Jewish client nations. There were five Jewish
client nations in the dispensation of Israel.
          a. The Theocratic Kingdom from the Exodus to the time
of Samuel, B.C. 1441 - 1020.
          b. The United Kingdom from Saul to Rehoboam., B.C.
1020 - 926.
          c. The Northern Kingdom from Jeroboam to Hoshea, B.C.
926 - 721. The fifth cycle of discipline was administered to the
Northern Kingdom by Assyria, commanded by Sargon II.
          d. The Southern Kingdom from Rehoboam to Zedekiah,
B.C. 926 - 586. The fifth cycle of discipline was administered
to the Southern Kingdom in 586 by the Chaldeans, commanded by
Nebuchadnezzar. Seventy years of captivity or slavery extended
from B.C. 586 - 516.
          e. The restored nation of Judea from Zerubbabel in
B.C. 516 - A.D. 70. The fifth cycle of discipline was
administered to Judea by the Romans, first under the command of
Vespasian and then by his son, Titus.
     3. With the fall of Jerusalem in August of 70 A.D., there
are no more Jewish client nations until the Second Advent.
     4.   The five cycles of discipline belong to the
dispensation of Israel, but the fifth cycle of discipline belongs
to the Church. The Church Age is the time of the Gentiles, and
the "times of the Gentiles" is the time in history when only
Gentile nations can be client nations to God. We live in the
times of the Gentiles. That means that only a Gentile client
nation can so function before God today.
     5. At the present time, we the people of the United States
are a Gentile client nation to God. The fifth cycle of
discipline belongs exclusively to the Church Age as of August of
70 A.D.
     6. The United States of America is under liability to the
Supreme Court of Heaven for the fifth cycle of discipline. It
all depends on whether or not believers fulfill the unique
spiritual life of the Church Age. The unique spiritual life is
the major factor in history.
     7. A royal family forever is being carved out of the
dispensation of the Church. Consequently, the Church Age is
dispensation of historical trends. Just as certain moral
principles, which apply to both believers and unbelievers, are
taken from the Mosaic Law, so certain historical trends originate
from the Old Testament canon. Many of the historical trends
related to the Gentile client nations in the Church Age are taken
from the five cycles of discipline of Lev 26.
     8. Our only hope for survival as a client nation rests in
certain principles of Bible doctrine. The three principles that
begin to solve the problem of the fifth cycle of discipline are:
the principle of the grace of God, the fact that Jesus Christ
controls history, and the principle 'As goes the Church Age
believer, so goes the client nation.' The only hope for
deliverance of the client nation depends on a pivot of mature
believers, classified as invisible heroes, who have fulfilled
everything related to the doctrine of magnetism. Magnetism is
the double column advance of Bible doctrine circulating in the
stream of consciousness and reciprocal love for God.
     9. The seven principles of hope for the client nation.
          a. You cannot buy hope; it is not for sale.
          b. You cannot legislate hope.
          c. Therefore, the government cannot give you hope.
          d. The only hope for the client nation resides in the
unique spiritual life of the Church Age.
          e. As goes the Church Age believer, so goes the client
nation to God. Therefore, hope is the technical monopoly
belonging to the royal family of God.
          f. Only those believers who execute the unique
spiritual life of the Church Age and become winner believers
occupied with Christ can deliver this nation from the fifth cycle
of discipline.
          g. The only hope for client nation USA are believers
in the double column advance to the high ground of maximum
glorification of God.

B. Definition of the Five Cycles of Discipline.
     1. There are five cycles of discipline administered to a
client nation, Jewish or Gentile.
          a. To the Jewish client nations during the
dispensation of Israel, the dispensation of the Hypostatic Union,
and the first forty years of the Church Age, the five cycles did
function.
          b. To the Gentile client nations beginning with
S.P.Q.R. in 70 A.D. and continuing to the present with the
U.S.A., these five cycles are still operational.
     2. Outline of the Five Cycles of Discipline.
          a. The first cycle of discipline, Lev 26:14-17.
          b. The second cycle of discipline, Lev 26:18-20.
          c. The third cycle of discipline, Lev 26:21-22.
          d. The fourth cycle of discipline, Lev 26:23-26.
          e. The fifth cycle of discipline, Lev 26:27-38,
amplified in Deut 28:49-67.
     3. The cycles of discipline are based on the principle that
Jesus Christ controls history directly, indirectly, and
permissively.
          a. He controls history directly through the function
of His own divine essence.
          b. He controls history indirectly through the function
of the laws of divine establishment.
          c. He controls history permissively through permitting
nations to use their own volition to destroy themselves. For no
nation is ever destroyed by an outside power before it is first
destroyed from within by its own individual and collective bad
decisions. Therefore, no nation is ever destroyed by another
nation until it first destroys itself through negative volition.
     4. Jesus Christ permits the policy of the angelic conflict
(the function of free will) to continue and conclude in human
history. Therefore, Satan's policy of good and evil must exist
in every generation; there must be a challenge to your attitude
toward doctrine.
     5. Because Jesus Christ is righteous and holy, He must
judge the nations with cycles of discipline.
     6. These cycles of discipline are punitive measures against
apostasy, reversionism and evil.
     7. Ps 118:8-9, "It is better to take refuge in the Lord
than to trust in man. It is better to take refuge in the Lord
than to trust in princes."
     8. To Israel the five cycles of discipline were prophecy,
but to the Church the five cycles of discipline are historical
trends. There are no prophecies in the Church Age.

C. The First Cycle of Discipline, Lev 26:14-17.
     1. Lev 26:14, "But if you do not obey Me and do not carry
out all of these commandments,"
          a. Obedience in Israel meant the execution of God's
plan for their dispensation. It meant the execution of the three
categories of the Mosaic Law. It meant perception of doctrine as
it was revealed at that time, first through the Torah and then
through the prophets.
          b. The commandments refer to the three parts of the
Mosaic Law. They are explained further in verse 15.
     2. Lev 26:15, "if instead you reject My statutes [the
freedom code] and your soul despises My ordinances [the spiritual
code of worship], and you fail to carry out all my commands so
breaking My covenant," The Mosaic Law is divided into three
parts.
          a. The first part of the Mosaic Law is "The
Decalogue," the freedom code made up of ten commandments. These
commandments define freedom in terms of morality, privacy,
property, and authority. Freedom without authority is anarchy;
authority without freedom is tyranny. The Ten Commandments also
define freedom in terms of relationship with God.
          b. The second part is called "the ordinances." This
is the spiritual code of worship and rebound. It graphically
presents soteriology and christology through the various articles
of furniture in the Tabernacle and temples, through the modus
operandi of the Levitical priesthood, through the function of the
holy days, and through the Levitical sacrifices. This spiritual
code presents the Gospel and Jesus Christ as the God of Israel.
          c. The third part is called "The Judgments." It is an
establishment code. It includes explanations related to freedom,
privacy, marriage, criminal law, taxation (tithing), military
policy and freedom through military victory, diet, health,
sanitation, quarantine, free enterprise, and profit motivation.
It outlaws violence, terrorism, civil disobedience, and
revolution.
     3. Lev 26:16, "then I will do this to you: I will bring
upon you sudden terror [terrorism], epidemic diseases, and fever
will destroy your sight and drain your life; also, you will plant
your seed in vain because your enemies will devour it."
          a. "Sudden terror" is the function of terrorism as it
existed in the ancient world. It is also a reference to
violence, unrestrained criminality, and hostility from other
nations.
          b. Many epidemics have been the beginning of the end
of great nations or empires.
          c. The last phrase refers to economic disaster and
depression. The illustration used refers to an agricultural
economy. In our industrial economy, this refers to inability to
compete with foreign markets.
     4. Lev 26:17, "I will set My face against you so that you
will be defeated by your enemies; consequently, those who hate
you will rule over you, and you will flee when no one is pursuing
you."
          a. In the first cycle, such defeat by enemies refers
to only preliminary wars. But before the other cycles of
discipline are administered, there is already loss in warfare.
(Our loss in warfare began with Korea and Vietnam.)
          b The Hebrew word for hate here means hate based on
envy. The Jews were the recipients of such fantastic blessings
from God that they were envied and then hated.
          c. "You will flee when no one is pursuing you" is an
idiom saying that the general population becomes cowardly, afraid
of war. They have no motivation from patriotism or the spiritual
life. Therefore, the population will do anything to avoid a war,
even surrendering whatever advantage it has in national and
international activity.

D. The Second Cycle of Discipline, Lev 26:18-20.
     1. Lev 26:18, "If after these things you will not listen to
Me, then I will punish you on an intensified basis seven more
times for your sins."
          a. The first phrase implies that some wake up as a
result of the first cycle of discipline.
          b. Everything in the first cycle is intensified in the
second cycle by seven.
     2. Lev 26:19, "Then I will also destroy the arrogance of
your power; I will make your sky like iron and your earth like
bronze."
          a. Notice that once the first cycle of discipline is
administered and it does not turn around the nation, arrogance
sets in. Arrogance is a whole complex of sins and evil.
          b. Today we have the greatest arrogance in places of
power. God actually punishes such arrogance among those in power
without the humility to use their power properly.
          c. The sky like iron and the earth like bronze refers
to a drought. Drought means economic disaster, resulting in
economic depression.
     3. Lev 26:20, "Then your strength will be spent uselessly;
for your land will not yield its produce, nor will the trees of
the land bear their fruit."
          a. No matter how hard you work, you cannot produce
food.
          b. The Bible should be interpreted in the time in
which it was written. This was written in during an agricultural
economy before the industrial revolution.
     4. So the second cycle of discipline is a depression, bad
social life, no national pride, and people work hard for nothing
(inflation).

E. Third Cycle of Discipline, Lev 26:21-22.
     1. Lev 26:21, "If therefore you remain hostile to Me
[negative volition toward Bible doctrine], and you are not
willing to hear Me, I will multiply your epidemics seven times
more as your sins deserve."
          a. God did not speak directly to them but indirectly
through His communicators, which at that time were the prophets.
          b. In the third cycle, there is the intensification of
epidemics and illnesses in the land. In our day, AIDs will break
this country if the trend continues, for it is a very serious
problem, and may rival the bubonic plague of the Middle Ages.
     2. Lev 26:22, "I will send wild animals [criminals] against
you and they will rob you of your children; they will destroy
your cattle and so reduce your population that your roads will be
deserted." With the end of civilization, violence overflows from
both animals and people.
     3. In the third cycle, the population is thinned out by
violence. Crime gets out of control; commerce is stopped; there
are natural disasters.
     4. Principles.
          a. When consensus contradicts Bible doctrine, then
strong delusion sets in.
          b. Strong delusion results in the function of the
arrogance skills (self-justification, self-deception, and self-
absorption).
          c. The human solution is no solution; the divine
solution is the only solution.
          d. The function of the arrogance skills results in
false solutions to real problems, the substitution of human
solutions instead of divine solutions.
          e. The substitution of human good for divine solutions
emphasizes herd-bound concepts of security. When you are in
trouble the principles of security become herd-bound; for
example, utopian socialism.
          f. When herd-bound concepts of security replace the
function of freedom, human volition makes decisions compatible
with self-destruction.

F. The Fourth Cycle of Discipline, Lev 26:23-26.
     1. So far nothing but grace warnings have been given. Now
God will really judge the nation. There will be great
uncontrollable crime, military invasion and partial defeat,
disease from overcrowding, a shortage of food causing starvation,
and even greater natural disasters. Examples can be found by
studying Israel in 68 A.D., 586 B.C., and 721 B.C.
     2. Lev 26:23, "And if by these things you will not be
corrected by Me, but will continue to be hostile toward Me
[negative volition from cosmic involvement in the stages of
reversionism],"
     3. Lev 26:24, "Then I will go into opposition toward you
[literally: act with hostility toward you], and I will strike you
seven times more for your sins." Again, there is the
intensification of the characteristics of all the cycles, with
something more added, as stated in verse 25.
     4. Lev 26:25, "I will bring the sword upon you to avenge
the breaking of the covenant, and when you retreat into your
cities I will send an epidemic among you, so that you will be
delivered into the hands of your enemies."
          a. One of the great signs of loss of freedom, and
replacing it with both moral and immoral degeneracy, is when you
see the breakdown of the military establishment. The entire book
of Numbers is devoted to setting up a mobilization plan for the
military.
          b. The part of the covenant that was broken was the
military part. There was military disaster as a result. Why did
the Jews have to retreat into their cities? Because their cities
were fortified, and their armies could not win in the field.
Once there are overcrowded cities, disease becomes rampant (as
illustrated by the Romans when fleeing from Hannibal).
     5. Lev 26:26, "When I cut off your food supply, ten women
will bake your bread in one oven, and they will dole out your
bread by weight, so that you will eat and never be satisfied."
          a. When an army begins to lose a war on its own soil,
the first thing to go is food supply. People start to starve, as
the south did in the last year of the War between the States. So
one of the inevitable results of the fourth cycle of discipline
is the beginning of starvation.
          b. Ten women baking bread in one oven means there is
food rationing. Therefore, after eating a small piece of bread,
you are just as hungry as you were before, and even more so.

G. The Fifth Cycle of Discipline, Lev 26:27-38.
     1. Now there is nothing to eat. Enemies have taken over
the country. People are put into slavery. People are afraid of
everything. Everyone has become a coward.
     2. Lev 26:27, "If, in spite of this, you do not listen to
Me but continue to be hostile toward Me [toward the message of
Bible doctrine]," The only hope is Bible doctrine; there is no
hope beyond Bible doctrine. The only hope for the nation is
found in believers.
     3. Lev 26:28, "then in My anger I will be hostile toward
you [no more grace], and I will punish you seven times more for
your sins."
     4. Lev 26:29, "then you will eat the flesh of your sons,
and you will eat the flesh of your daughters."
          a. No longer do you eat bread and rationed food, as in
the fourth cycle; now you eat people! Cannibalism is the total
malfunction of all establishment principles. One of the
strongest of all establishment principles is the family and the
love of parents for children. But in those days, parents will
eat their children.
          b. This type of cannibalism actually occurred between
66 and 70 A.D. among Jews under the siege of Jerusalem by the
Roman army. Josephus documented such things. Civilization
suddenly departs in the fifth cycle of discipline.
     5. Lev 26:30, "Then I will destroy your high places and cut
down your incense altars, and stack your corpses on the dumb
corpses of your idols; for My soul will despise you." The high
places are the meeting places of false doctrine and cults,
especially the phallic cult.
     6. Lev 26:31, "I will turn your cities into ruins, and lay
waste to your sanctuaries; I will take no delight in the fact
that you suddenly start offering sacrifices."
     7. Lev 26:32-33, "I will make the land desolate so that
your enemies who settle in it will be appalled by its condition.
You, however, I will scatter among the nations, and I will draw
out My sword and pursue you, and your cities will lie in ruins."
          a. The territory is occupied.
          b. Being scattered among nations means you go into
slavery. This happened three times to the Jewish people.
     8. Lev 26:34, "Then the land will satisfy its Sabbath
requirements all the days of desolation, while you are in the
land of your enemies; consequently, the land will rest and be
paid its Sabbaths." The Jews had ignored seventy Sabbatical
years, and therefore the Southern Kingdom had seventy years under
slavery.
     9. Lev 26:35, "All the days of its desolation [fifth cycle]
it will observe the rest which it did not observe on your
sabbatical years while you were living in the land."
     10. Lev 26:36, "As for those of you who survive [the fifth
cycle], I will make their right lobes so afraid in the land of
their enemies that the sound of a wind-blown leaf will put them
into flight. In fact, when no one is pursuing, they will run as
though fleeing from an army, and they will fall even when no one
is pursuing." People do die of fright.
     11. Lev 26:37, "Furthermore, they will fall over each other
as if fleeing from the sword, although no one is pursuing them;
consequently, you will have no strength." No strength means no
military establishment for freedom, and no patriotic motivation.
It's too late in the fifth cycle of discipline, because it takes
a long time to train a military establishment.
     12. Lev 26:38, "But you will perish among the nations, and
the land of your enemies will devour you." Enemies of the Jews
were those like Assyria, Chaldea, and Rome.
     13. Deut 28:49-67 is another horrible description of the
fifth cycle of discipline. Deut 28:66, "So your life will be in
constant suspense, filled with fear, both night and day, never
sure of your life."
     14. Isaiah warned the Northern Kingdom and Jeremiah warned
the Southern Kingdom during the first administration of the fifth
cycle of discipline to each of these nations.

H. Historical Examples of the Administration of the Fifth Cycle
of Discipline to Jewish Client Nations.
     1. The fifth cycle of discipline was administered to
Assyria, Ezek 31:3-14.
     2. The fifth cycle of discipline was administered to the
Northern Kingdom, Hos 4:1-6, in 721 B.C. Elijah, Elisha, Amos
and Hosea all prophesied the coming of the fifth cycle of
discipline. 2 Kg 17 gives the historical account. Isa 28:1-13
gives the prophetical account.
     3. The fifth cycle of discipline was administered to the
Southern Kingdom in 586 B.C., Jer 50:17, 7:24-29, because they
did not listen to the teaching of doctrine, Jer 15:5-6,
13:10-11,17, 17:27, 35:13.
          a. The overt manifestation of Jewish reversionism in
the Southern Kingdom was idolatry, Jer 2:27-30, 3:9, 7:17-20,
13:10, 17:1-4.
          b. The duration of the first fifth cycle of discipline
to the Southern Kingdom was seventy years, all of their
sabbatical years. Cf Ex 23:10-11; Lev 25:3-4, 26:33-36; 2 Chr
36:20-21; Jer 25:11-12, 29:10; Dan 9:2, 24-27.
     4. The fifth cycle of discipline was administered to Judea
in 70 A.D.
          a. This was prophesied by our Lord in Lk 21:20-24.
               (1) This was our Lord's prophesy of the siege of
Jerusalem in 70 A.D.
               (2) The Jews were warned by Jesus Christ to flee
to the mountains and get out of the city. To go into the walled
city of Jerusalem was almost sure death.
               (3) Verse 22, "because these things are the days
of punishment, in order that all things that are written may be
fulfilled.."
               (4) The Jews will be led into all nations as
slaves and dispersed throughout the world.
          b. They were also warned by the teaching of Paul. The
gift of tongues was also a warning to Israel that they were about
to lose their status as a priest nation to God.
          c. The dispensation of the Church and the completion
of the Jewish Age both occur while Israel is out under the fifth
cycle of discipline.
     5. Grace always precedes the fifth cycle of discipline by
the warnings of the first four cycles. In the fifth cycle of
discipline, you either are killed or become enslaved.

I. The Fifth Cycle of Discipline to the Northern Kingdom.
     1. The Northern Kingdom was established as a result of a
revolution, based on jealousy of Judah, the Southern Kingdom, 1
Chr 12:30; Ps 60:7; 2 Sam 19:40-43.
     2. Mental attitude sins like jealousy destroy capacity for
love. The Northern Kingdom never had the basis to love God
because it was founded on jealousy. A kingdom founded on
emotional revolt of the soul will inevitably destroy itself.
Being built up by emotional revolt, the actual incident that
kicked off the revolution was human good when the people
complained to Rehoboam with their grievance.
     3. The Northern Kingdom began with Jeroboam in 926 B.C. He
was in emotional revolt of the soul.
     4. Even though the Northern Kingdom had such a bad start,
God in His grace tried to stabilize the Northern Kingdom. God
provided for the Northern Kingdom special prophets who warned the
Northern Kingdom against apostasy and tried to communicate to
them the principles of freedom. Four outstanding prophets were
involved in this grace push by our Lord.
          a. Elijah, c.871-851 B.C.
          b. Elisha, c.845 B.C..
          c. Amos, 787 B.C.
          d. Hosea, c. 746 B.C.
     5. Amos warned the Northern Kingdom in 787 B.C. during the
reign of Jeroboam II. Hosea warned the Northern Kingdom, c.746
B.C., during the fourth cycle of discipline when Tiglath-Pileser
III was the Assyrian king. In addition, Isaiah provided some
warning, as in the first part of Isa 28.
     6. The fifth cycle of discipline is described in two
passages of the Old Testament, so that both the Northern Kingdom
and Southern Kingdom had adequate warning about it; Lev 26:27-46;
Deut 28:49-67.
     7. The historical account of the fifth cycle of discipline
to the Northern Kingdom is found in 2 Kg 17:1-12.
     6. The prophetical account of the fifth cycle of discipline
to the Northern Kingdom is found in Isa 28:1-13 and is mentioned
in Jer 3:8.
     7. Before judgment came to the Northern Kingdom, and during
the two years in which the Assyrians were in the Northern Kingdom
and even afterward, Jews of the Northern Kingdom fled to the
Southern Kingdom and became citizens there, 1 Chr 9:3.
     8. Therefore, there is no such thing as the "ten lost
tribes." The ten tribes of the Northern Kingdom, from the time
of Elijah down to the time when Shalmaneser invaded, constantly
fled south. So all the tribes were represented in the Southern
Kingdom after the Northern Kingdom fell.
     9. The fifth cycle of discipline began in 721 B.C. with the
fall of Samaria. The Assyrians' siege began under Shalmaneser V
(who died), and ended when Sargon II defeated the Northern
Kingdom in battle, Jer 50:17a.

J. The Fifth Cycle of Discipline to the Southern Kingdom.
     1. Deut 28:49-67 was fulfilled.
     2. The first administration to the Southern Kingdom of the
fifth cycle of discipline is called the Babylonian captivity, Jer
50:17b. The time was 586 B.C. The administrator was the
Chaldean Empire under Nebuchadnezzar.
     3. The second administration to the Southern Kingdom is the
present dispersion, Lk 21:40-25. Its time period is August 70
A.D. to the Second Advent. Its administrator was Rome under
Vespasian and Titus.
     4. The reason for the fifth cycle of discipline was the
rejection of Bible doctrine, Jer 7:23-29, 13:10,11,17, 15:5-6,
17:27, 35:13.
     5. The overt cause of the fifth cycle of discipline was
apostasy and idolatry (which resulted in rejection of Bible
doctrine), Jer 2:27-30, 3:9, 7:17-20, 13:10, 17:1-4.
     6. The length of the first administration of the fifth
cycle of discipline was seventy years. This was determined on
the basis of the Jews having rejected seven Sabbatical years over
a period of 490 years, Jer 25:11-12, 29:10; Dan 9:2,24-27.
     7. During the present dispersion, there are two substitutes
for the nation Israel.
          a. The Church Age, where every believer is a priest.
          b. The Tribulation, when 144,000 Jews represent the
Lord, Rev 7 and 14.

K. Why the cycles of discipline to client nations? Hosea 4:1-6.
     1. This passage is addressed to believers. For in the
final analysis, it is the believers who are responsible for the
rise or fall of a client nation.
     2. Hos 4:1, "Hear the word of the Lord, you citizens of
Israel [Northern Kingdom] because the Lord has a case
[indictment] against the inhabitants of the client nation,
because nothing of doctrine is taught, nothing about grace is
being applied; there is no knowledge of God in the land."
          a. Just as God had an indictment against the Jewish
client nations, so today He has an indictment against a Gentile
client nation, the United States of America.
          b. "Because nothing of doctrine is taught." There is
no demand for Bible teaching in time of apostasy.
          c. As a result, "nothing of grace is being applied."
Grace and doctrine go together. When they are both gone, that is
one of the reasons for the five cycles of discipline.
     3. Hos 4:2, "Instead, there is lying [dishonesty],
deception, homicide, stealing, rape, therefore blood touches
blood [idiom for perpetual violence]."
     4. Hos 4:3, "Therefore, the land mourns, and all who live
in it languish along with the beasts of the field and the birds
of the air."
          a. "The land mourns" means the people are miserable
under the cycles of discipline. No one is enjoying anything or
having any fun. Social life, business life, and spiritual life
are gone; there is nothing but abject misery.
          b. "All who live in it languish" means loss of
national courage, patriotism, vitality, and strength.
          c. Animals suffer when people suffer. People are
viciously cruel under the cycles of discipline.
     5. Hos 4:4, "Yet let no one find fault [as in evil
activism]; let no one offer criticism, for your citizens are like
those who contend with the priests [communicators of doctrine]."
          a. Activism is the last thing you need to get into
when under the cycles of discipline.
          b. Criticism is blaming other groups. It is the
believer who must take the responsibility for these things
himself. It is negative volition and a shrinking pivot that
brings these things.
     6. Hos 4:5, "Therefore, you have stumbled in the daylight,
and even the prophet will stumble with you in the night darkness;
and I will destroy your native country [motherland]."
          a. Stumbling in the daylight means cosmic involvement,
including crusader arrogance. Daylight means becoming a loser by
rejecting Bible doctrine after hearing it, or failing to
metabolize gnosis doctrine into epignosis doctrine.
          b. "And even the prophet will stumble with you" means
prophets become false prophets and they teach false doctrine.
          c. Today, hundreds of thousands of pulpits speak of
"`peace, peace,' when there is no peace," just as they said in
Jeremiah's day, Jer 6:14, 8:11; Ezek 13:10, 16. Today, pastors
peddle false doctrine while the United States is declining for
lack of pivot.
          d. There can be no pivot without the pastor-teacher
communicating the mystery doctrine for the Church Age. There can
be no pivot without the manufacture of invisible heroes.
     7. Hos 4:6, "My people are destroyed by lack of knowledge
of doctrine. Because you have rejected the knowledge of
doctrine, I will reject you from being My priest nation."
          a. A client nation to God is a priest nation in that
it represents God under three factors. The freedom developed in
the client nation means:
               (1) Freedom for evangelism in the nation.
               (2) Freedom to teach doctrine in the nation.
               (3) Freedom to send missionaries to other
countries to communicate the Gospel, and form the converts into
indigenous local churches.
          b. Today, the United States is a priest nation. It
may not be tomorrow. The only hope for this country resides in
your soul. If there is negative volition, we will go down. If
there is a surge in positive volition, it could form a large
enough pivot to deliver this country.
          c. A nation without Bible doctrine is a nation without
solutions.
          d. The divine solution is the only solution; the human
solution is no solution.
          e. As goes the believer, so goes the client nation to
God.
          f. This prophecy given in Hosea 4 was fulfilled to the
Northern Kingdom in B.C. 721. What happened to greater nations
than we in the past can certainly happen to us tomorrow.

L. The Solution to the Fifth Cycle of Discipline.
     1. Church Age believers have been born again to serve the
Lord. The moment we believed in Christ we were given all the
equipment necessary to execute the spiritual life. God has a
specific purpose for our life. We know this because God gave us
a spiritual gift.
          a. We serve the Lord in many different ways, depending
on our spiritual gift and spiritual advance.
          b. Our spiritual advance depends on reciprocity and
magnetism.
          c. But we are also designed to serve God in one way in
historical crisis by becoming a part of the pivot of mature
believers.
          d. We cannot serve God under our spiritual gift and
continue to sin in our area of weakness. We cannot serve the
Lord, when we are grieving and suppressing the Holy Spirit. We
cannot grieve and suppress the Holy Spirit and get away with it.
               (1) Suppressing the Holy Spirit.
                    (a) Suppressing the Spirit is found in 1
Thes 5:19, "Stop suppressing the Holy Spirit." Suppressing the
Spirit is generally related to sins of cognizance. The verb
denotes deliberate suppression of the ministry of the filling of
the Spirit through perpetual carnality plus rejection of the
recovery procedure of 1 Jn 1:9. Rejection of the recovery
procedure results in failure of the believer to execute divine
mandates regarding the function and application of the spiritual
life of the Church Age.
                    (b) Grieving the Holy Spirit is found in Eph
4:30. Grieving the Spirit is emphasizing the failure of
believers in their personal sins to attain spiritual maturity and
maximum glorification of God.
                    (c) Both commands are present active
imperatives of prohibition with the negative ME, which means to
stop doing something you are already doing.
                    (d) Suppressing the Holy Spirit is failure
to share the happiness of God, 1 Thes 5:16, "Keep on always
having happiness." Suppressing the Holy Spirit is failure to
have gratitude toward God, 1 Thes 5:18, "In everything give
thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning
you."
                    (e) Suppressing the Holy Spirit is too much
arrogance associated with learning -learning things that will
never be of any use to us spiritually.
                    (f) Suppressing the Holy Spirit is operation
overthink, which is speculation beyond what the Scripture
teaches, or false application of doctrine, or make other academic
subjects a higher priority than doctrine. We put people down
because they have not learned what we have learned.
                    (g) Suppressing the Holy Spirit is arrogance
about knowledge in general and sometimes a dogmatic stand for
false doctrine. The suppressing of the Spirit is related to
doctrinal distortion and controversies, while grieving the Holy
Spirit emphasizes the lusts of deceit of Eph 4:22.
                    (h) Hence, suppression of the Holy Spirit is
resistance to doctrine that conflicts with pre-conceived notions
about life in general and false ideas that are challenged by
Bible teaching.
               (2) Grieving the Holy Spirit.
                    (a) Grieving the Holy Spirit emphasizes
various categories of sins, which result in extended or even
perpetual carnality.
                    (b) Eph 4:30, "Furthermore, stop grieving
the Holy Spirit, the God (the genitive of apposition), ."
                    (c)

          e. Believers who do not rebound cause the fifth cycle
of discipline. We cannot serve the Lord unless we are filled
with the Spirit. Christian service and sin cannot co-exist in
the spiritual life.
     2. The use of the recovery procedure of 1 Jn 1:9 is the
solution to perpetual carnality in the client nation.
     3. The advance to the high ground of spiritual maturity
through the double column advance of reciprocal love for God and
maximum metabolized Bible doctrine in the stream of consciousness
is the ultimate solution to the fifth cycle of discipline.

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

quixoticjack — Wed, 13 May 2009 17:43:12 GMT

Right & Wrong QJ. Paul is Right & God IS IN CONTROL!!!........................

..QJ: Then you admit that God put Obama in charge.

If that's true, then railing and ranting and spewing against God's choice from day one to a little over 100 days, is not only treasonous, but blasphemous. The yawning cavern of Hell awaits....

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

quixoticjack — Wed, 13 May 2009 17:49:58 GMT

As God controls history, He knows the Possible & what will be the Actual......................

.QJ: If God controls history, then everything is a done deal, isn't it? In fact, it's all just his plan and everything happens according to that plan. What's the use of any kind of praying when what is going to occur is cut and dried?

This Does Not cancel our "Free Will".......................

.QJ: Sure it does. What choice is there when God planned it all? What choice but to do exactly what God has planned?

Can I do something different next week when God already knows what I will do? If I did, then God wouldn't know what I'd be doing.

So, everyone's locked in to God's plan.

It must be a tad boring for God to know exactly what is to occur having planned it all. In effect, God is locked in, too, by his own omnisciency.

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

quixoticjack — Wed, 13 May 2009 17:53:02 GMT

Wrong in that U don't Recognize that WE are under the Fifth Cycle of DISCIPLINE Right Now for turning from God.....................................

...QJ: I do recognize, though, the sheer lunancy of what you say, as did the Founding Fathers, which is the MAIN reason for keeping folks like you at arm's length, if not further away

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

quixoticjack — Wed, 13 May 2009 17:57:56 GMT

And to SUPPORT the Continuing Backwards Slide of our Country instead of getting our Country TOGETHER FOR PRAYER & SUPPLICATION TO GOD, IS WRONG & A PART OF THAT DISCIPLINE THAT GOD HAS PUT UPON US THROUGH THIS ADMINISTRATION!!!....................

..QJ: But according to you and Paul, God is in control. So, anything that occurs, God did it, and bears the responsibility.

Who was responsible for creating Satan, a successful rival?

Who was responsible for letting Satan exist, have his way, create a circumstance for God to have to come up with failed and foiled plan after plan, and finally decide to be plopped out of the birth canal of a 12 year old, then have the world at war for 2000 or so years?

How can Obama be blamed when you admit God is in charge?

A terrible CEO is God, isn't he?

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

quixoticjack — Wed, 13 May 2009 18:09:07 GMT

By not Recognizing this People with Ur Mindset will Prolong the Discipline!!! In oneway however this is not bad because it will usher in the Rapture........................

..QJ: Ah, yes, the poofing. A bus driver barreling along at 70 miles an hour--poof! He's gone, but his passeengers soar over the cliff in the bus; ah, yes, the rapture, the Alice-in-Wonderland belief system, a system that has the audacity to ridicule reincarnation and 72 virgins, not recognizing the sheer stupidity/insanity of poofings

& Tribulation Sooner ...........

.QJ: Ah, yes, the rivers of sparkling blood waist high, this decribed in The Revelation, written by, according to Thomas Jefferson, a "raving maniac." And all of it written specifically for seven churches concerning the immediate future. "Soon" dominates The Revelation.

bringing in Christs Millenial Rule ..................

..QJ: Ah, yes, where people will worship 24/7 since there will be no commerce, no nothing, not even bodies with stomachs. Did you know that people in heaven won't have stomachs?. I've yet to find a Christian who was aware of the "no stomach" condition.

..& the eventual New Heavens & Earth!......................

.QJ: Ah, yes, a pre-fabricated, magical city will float down from outer space, 1500 miles high, 1500 miles wide, 1500 miles long,

and the light from the presence of Jesus will light it all up while Jesus just sits and gets praised and worshipped 24/7 by people with no stomachs.....

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

quixoticjack — Wed, 13 May 2009 18:51:26 GMT

...QJ: This quantifies and solidifies your around the bend and gone sgain status, while at the same time, waving a huge white flag, since you cannot deal with context and specifics.

Context is easy: A Day of Prayer was/is recognized. The only "tradition" you point to is the 8 years of G.W. Bush.

Specifically, you are on the polarized side of the Founding Fathers, and squarely in the tent with the Afghanistan Taliban mentality.....

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

Moosemose — Wed, 13 May 2009 21:36:44 GMT

Not that U'll read or understand this, but here's a bit about Ur Q. on Satan that just may fill in some of the Reasons behind the Non-Believers Actions. Enjoy!!! John

DOCTRINE OF SATANIC STRATEGY

A. The Person of Satan.
     1. He was the highest ranking of all angels, and ruler of
all fallen angels Mt 8:28, 9:34, 12:26; Lk 11:18-19. He is the
most perfect and beautiful creature to come from the hand of God.
Ezek 28:12, "Son of man [Ezekiel], take up a lamentation upon the
king of Tyre and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord God, "You were
the one sealing a pattern of perfection, full of wisdom and great
beauty." He has a voice like a pipe organ. He is superior in
genius, beauty, personality, persuasiveness, and is invisible.
As a creature Satan had a throne, "I will raise my throne above
the stars [angels] of God."
          a. He was the chief of angels and his name was
Lucifer, the Bright Morning Star. He was the most spiritual
being that ever existed. This is why as even a fallen angel he
can transfer himself into an angel of light, 2 Cor 12:11-14.
          b. Satan is his name as the enemy of God.
          c. Angels were created for the purpose of serving and
praising God, Ps 103:20-21.
          d. According to Ps 8:5, angels are superior to mankind
and have rank and organization.
               (1) Cherubs or covering angels guard God's
holiness, Isa 17:16; Ezek 1:10.
               (2) Seraphim or the burning ones lead in worship,
Isa 6:2-3.
               (3) The archangel is the commanding general of
angelic armies, 1 Thes 4:16.
               (4) The heavenly host and the demon armies are in
continuous unseen warfare, Dan 10:13; Eph 6:12.
          e. Angels are confined to the earth (the atmosphere
around the earth is the first heaven) and the universe (second
heavens) except when there are special convocations of all angels
in the third heaven, Job 1:6; 2:1. The third heaven is the abode
of God, Eph 1:20-22; 4:10.
     2. He is a prehistoric super-creature, Isa 14:12-17; Ezek
28:11-19. He was so brilliant in his defense during God's trial
that God created man to resolve the conflict.
     3. He has three falls; two are in the future.
          a. His angelic sin of arrogance in which he said, "I
will be like the Most High God." He revolted against God, taking
one-third of all angels with him, Isa 14:13-14; Ezek 28:12-19.
          b. He is cast out of heaven in the middle of the
Tribulation, Rev 12:7,9,20.
          c. He is cast into the lake of fire, Isa 14; Ezek 28;
Rev 12,20.
               (1) Rev 12:9-17, "Then the great dragon, the
ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who keeps on
deceiving the entire world was thrown out [of heaven]; he was
hurled to the earth; furthermore his angels were thrown out with
him. Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, which said, 'Now the
deliverance has come, also the power [Jesus Christ in Hypostatic
Union], even the kingdom of our God [Father] and the authority of
His Christ [millennial reign of Christ], because the accuser of
our fellow believers, who constantly brings charges against them
before our God day and night, has been thrown out [of heaven].
Furthermore, they [Tribulational saints] overcame him [Satan]
because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of doctrine by
means of their testimony, in fact they did not love their life to
the point of death. For this reason, keep celebrating, You
heavens [elect angels and Church Age believers] and you [Old
Testament saints and Tribulational martyrs] who dwell in them
[the heavens (in interim bodies)]. Woe to the earth and the sea,
because the devil has come down face-to-face with you, and he
foams with fury, knowing that his time is short. Now when the
dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he
persecutes the woman [Israel] who gave birth to the male child
[the humanity of Christ]. Nevertheless, the two wings
[logistical grace divine protection of Israel, Ex 19:4; Deut
32:9-12] of the great eagle had been given to the woman
[regenerate Israel], so that she might fly to her place of refuge
[Edom, Moab, Ammon, Dan 11:41; Mt 24:16; Rev 12:6] where in that
place she will be sustained for three and a half years from the
presence of the serpent. Then the serpent [Satan] projected from
his mouth water [third demon army] like the rapids [tidal wave,
or floods] to overtake the woman [Israel], in order that he might
cause her to be swept away by the flood [tidal wave, rapids].
Nevertheless, the land mass [the army of Israel with divine
power] helped the woman [Israel], in fact the land mass opened
its mouth and swallowed the flood waters [attack of third demon
assault army], which the dragon projected from his mouth. Then
the dragon was enraged with the woman, consequently he went off
to make war against the survivors of her posterity, those who
keep observing the mandates of God and who keep on having the
testimony of Jesus."
              (2) Rev 20:1-10, "Then I saw an angel [officer of
arms] descending from heaven, and he had the key to the Abyss
[the prison for all fallen angels during the millennium] and a
great chain in his hand [a pair of giant handcuffs]. Then he
seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, even
Satan, and bound [incarcerated] him for a thousand years. Then
he cast him into the Abyss, he both locked and sealed over him,
that he should no longer deceive the nations until the thousand
years were completed. After these things, he must be released
for a short time. Then I saw the thrones and they [Tribulational
martyrs] sat on them, and judgment was given to them; furthermore
I saw the souls of those who had been decapitated because of the
witness for Jesus, really because of doctrine from God; and these
who are such a category as who do not worship the beast, nor his
image and do not receive the mark on the forehead or on their
hand, they both came to life and ruled with Christ for a thousand
years. The rest of the dead unbelievers did not come to life
until the thousand years was completed. This is the first
resurrection. Happy and holy [sanctified] is he who has part in
the first resurrection; over these the second death has no
jurisdiction, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ; in
fact they shall rule with Him for a thousand years. Now when the
thousand years shall be completed, Satan shall be released from
his prison, then he will appear to deceive the nations which are
in the four hemispheres of the earth, Gog [code name for Satan]
and Magog [code name for Satan's followers], to concentrate them
for battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. Then they
marched [came up] over the wide terrain of the land and they
surrounded the bivouac of the saints and the beloved city
[Jerusalem], then fire came down from heaven and destroyed
[devoured] them. Then the devil who had deceived them was cast
into the lake of fire and burning sulfur, where both the beast
[dictator of the Revived Roman Emperor] and the false prophet
[the dictator of Israel] are located; and they shall be tormented
day and night forever and ever."
    4. He has two advents.
         a. His first advent is in the Garden of Eden, Gen 3.
         b. His second advent is when he returns at the end of
the Millennium to start a revolt against perfect environment, Rev
20:8. His advents are always related to perfect environment.
    5. He is the central antagonist of the angelic conflict,
Heb 1-2; Gen 6; 1 Pet 3:18-22.
    6. He is an organizational genius with a great organization
of demons, Eph 6:10-12. There are four major demon attacks on
the human race.
         a. The genetic attack on the antediluvian civilization
in Gen 6:1-13.
         b. The attack of demon possession.
         c. The attack of demon influence, which involves
cosmic one and cosmic two.
         d. The attack of demon armies in the Tribulation, Rev
9.
    7. He is the origin of murder and violence in the human
race, Gen 6:4-11; Jn 8:44. He doesn't play by any rules.
    8. He is the enemy of Bible doctrine, Mt 13:9, 39, Rev
12:13,15 and attacks your capacity for life.
    9. He is the enemy of the Church (the royal family), Rev
2:9-13, 24.
         10. He is the enemy of Christ, Rev 12:4.
         11. He is called the Anointed Cherub. As such, he held
the highest position of all angelic
creatures. He is now lower than the Seraphim which are in
command of the elect angels.
         12. He is the greatest deceiver of history. To be such
a deceiver the devil must be the greatest and most effective liar
in history, Jn 8:44, "You are from your father the devil, and you
want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from
the beginning, and does not stand for the truth, because there is
no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his
own nature; because he is a liar, and the father of lies."
         a. When there is no doctrine or establishment truth
circulating in the stream of consciousness of either believers or
unbelievers, they will automatically lie. When Satan is the
mentor of anyone, they have no truth and follow in the function
of the mentor. Satan never tells the truth. The power of the
truth in your soul as a believer is one of the greatest factors
in insulating you against the power of Satan.
         b. Satan works through human beings who are liars, 2
Thes 2:9-10, "that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the
activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
and with every deception of unrighteousness for those who perish,
because they did not receive the love for the truth with the
result that they might be delivered." Believers are deceived as
easily as unbelievers by the satanic strategy.
         c. Two illustrations of the satanic lie.
              (1) Socialism. The basis for socialism in modern
history goes back to Sir Thomas Moore in his book Utopia where
there was political and social perfection. This is the Devil's
lie. Utopia, therefore, became a synonym for any visionary
system of political or social perfection or perfect environment.
The theory of utopian socialism is a lie, an economic tinkering
with the laws of divine establishment, whereby a false premise is
inculcated--that if capitalism voluntarily surrendered its
ownership of the means of production to the State or to workers,
unemployment and poverty would be abolished. This is a lie
because people do not understand that capital and investment
creates jobs, not government. The theory establishes slavery to
the State rather than freedom of self-determination with the
government protecting that freedom.
              (2) Christian Activism. The Devil sponsors
Christian activism on the one hand, while arrogance skills
sponsor Christian activism on the other hand. 2 Cor 11:3, "But I
am afraid, lest as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness,
your minds should be led astray from the purity and virtue which
belongs to Christ." Truth brings purity and virtue to the
unbeliever and believer respectively. Our Lord did not become
involved in activism ("Deliver us from the Romans.") and we take
our precedence for the Church Age from the dispensation of the
Hypostatic union. Satan's objective is to distract you from the
spiritual skills to the political solution. Truth causes Satan
to flee, Jam 4:7, "Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and
he will flee from you."
                   (a) Christian activism combines the
arrogance skills with legalism--self-righteous arrogance plus
crusader arrogance. Christians involved in activism think they
are serving God when they are serving Satan. This is self-
deception. Temporal solutions to the problems of life are not
spiritual solutions.
                   (b) Paul's warning against the arrogance
skills is found in Rom 12:2-3, "Stop being conformed to this
world, but be transformed by the renovation of your thought, that
you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and
acceptable and perfect. For I say through the grace which has
been given to me to every one who is among you stop thinking of
self in terms of arrogance beyond what you ought to think; but
think in terms of sanity for the purpose of being rational
without illusion, as God has assigned to each one of us a
standard of thinking from doctrine." The basis for all satanic
religions has always been human sacrifice and the basis for human
sacrifice is always a satanic lie. Activism is a way of thinking
of self in terms of arrogance. Thinking in terms of sanity is
thinking truth.
         13. In relationship to the angelic conflict Satan also
has certain principles of activity and power.
         a. Satan gets at believers by intruding into their
prayer life through religion and legalism, Ps 109:7.
         b. He has the power to shorten life within the
framework of God's permissive will, Ps 109:8a. This power has to
do with our punishment when we fail.
         c. He has the power to remove people from authority,
Ps 109:8b.
         d. He even has the power to kill under certain
circumstances, Ps 109:9
         e. He has the power to persecute children, Ps 109:10.
         f. He can remove wealth, Ps 109:11.
         g. He can turn people against you, Ps 109:12.
         h. He can cut off the posterity of families, Ps 109:13
         i. He can cause disease, Job 2:6-8; 2 Cor 12:7.
         j. He can cause the infiltration of false doctrines in
the concepts of the human soul, such as human good, religion,
legalism, resulting in garbage in the subconscious, 1 Tim 4:1.
         k. Satan can use none of this power apart from the
sovereign will of God. God permits Satan to test or punish
believers. God is always under control of the situation.
              (1) The permissive will of God is always related
to the testing of believers.
              (2) While Satan is involved, he cannot use the
power involved apart from God's permission, especially in the
case of death. God never lets it go beyond the boundaries of the
punishment He has already ordained.
              (3) Each of these satanic strategies to get at
the believer must be regarded in relationship to certain
categories.
              (4) Is Satan permitted to execute power as
punishment, or does Satan have the power of testing?
              (5) There is constant satanic attack against
believers in the form of condemnation as a part of Satan's appeal
trial. He always picks on carnal believers for punishment and
mature believers for testing.
              (6) It is necessary for the believer to examine
his own life privately in regard to the ten points of satanic
strategy listed above.
              (7) It is necessary for the believer to under
these things categorically in the light of God's punishment, in
the light of divine blessing, in the light of advancing to the
high ground, or in the light of the testimony of all angelic
creatures.
              (8) Believers must understand that the appeal
trial of Satan is a constant and on-going function both in heaven
and on earth.
              (9) God is never unfair.
                   (a) All of us will experience the
possibility of punishment for perpetual carnality through the
permissive will of God. God permits certain evil forces to
attack us as a means of punishment for perpetual carnality.
                   (b) However, through rebound and the double
column advance we experience the fantastic blessings of
glorification of God.
                   (c) God must have all your attention at all
times.
                   (d) If we do not give God our attention, God
will take steps to get our attention.
                   (e) God's grace extends to severity to bring
us back in line and to teach us lessons the hard way, as in Heb
12:6-7, "For those whom the Lord loves He punishes, And He skins
alive with a whip every son whom He receives. It is for
discipline that you must endure; God deals with you as with sons;
for what son is there whom his father does not punish?"
                   (f) God never changes whether He is blessing
us or whether he is disciplining us. He always loves us.
                   (g) Where believers are concerned, it is
impossible for God to do anything apart from grace, which means,
apart from love.
                   (h) The punishment is designed under the
love of God under the principle of a fair shake. Under the
principle of a fair shake, God often uses wicked people or even
Satan himself as a means of bringing us around.
                   (i) This means that Satan enters into the
permissive will of God and punishes us in hatred. God punishes
us in love. Satan is always willing to punish any believer.
                   (j) True love for God is built on foundation
of the combination of humility and respect. Humility is
recognition of and obedience to the authority of God. This
humility forms a respect, which is true love for God or
reciprocity. Reciprocal love for God is the motivation for
advance to the high ground of spiritual maturity and meeting all
the testing that would come your way.
       14. The inscrutable question.
         a. Many biblical students have asked the question,
"What kind of redemption solution was available for Satan and the
fallen angels?" But no one has ever properly answered the
question. Instead they say it is inscrutable.
              (1) The word inscrutable means not easily
understood, unfathomable, incomprehensible and undiscoverable.
              (2) The answer is "None." There was no
redemption in eternity past with regard to Satan and the fallen
angels.
              (3) The angels did not have something they had to
believe in order to be elect angels.
              (4) The fallen angels knew what the consequences
of their decision to follow Satan would be before they made their
decision to follow Satan, but they believed that Satan could set
aside God. They knew they would go to the lake of fire and share
Satan's judgment in the lake of fire, but decided to follow
Satan.
         b. The Bible does not associate redemption with the
fall of Satan as an alternative solution. Why? Because all
angelic creatures were created perfect with perfect volition and
eternal life.
         c. Scripture.
              (1) Col 1:13-16, "For He delivered us from the
authority of darkness, and transferred into the kingdom of the
Son of His love, in Whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of
sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all
creation. Because by agency of Him [LJC] all things were created
in the heavens [angels] and on earth [mankind], visible [mankind]
and invisible [angels], whether thrones or angelic powers or
ruler-angels or angels with the right to decide, all things have
been created through Him and for Him." Cf. Jn 1:3; Heb 1:2, 10.
                   (a) The Greek word THRONOS is the name of a
class of supernatural beings (angels).
                        i. In the phrase in Isa 14:13, "I will
raise my throne above the stars of God" the word for throne is
the Hebrew word is KESSE.
                              ii. It is used figuratively for
rulership. Satan revolts against the eternal rulership of God.
                   (b) The Greek word KURIOTES refers to a
special class of angelic powers.
                   (c) The Greek word ARCHAI refers to a
special class of ruler-angels.
                   (d) The word "authorities" is an incorrect
translation. The Greek word EXOUSIA means freedom of choice, the
angelic right to decide in eternity past. The right to decide
was not directed toward redemption as with the human race, but
since angels already had eternal life, the decision was within
the sphere of that eternal life, i.e., eternal life with God in
heaven or eternal life with Satan in the lake of fire.
              (2) Eph 6:11-12, "Put on the full armor from God,
that you might always be able to stand your ground against the
strategies of the devil. Because our warfare is not against
blood and flesh, but against ruler-angels [demon general
officers], against authorities [demon officer corps], against the
demon world rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual forces
of evil [rank and file demons] in the heavenly places [the
atmosphere around the earth]."
         d. At the fall of Satan all angels made a decision to
follow God or follow Satan resulting in two categories of angelic
creatures. The angels who rejected the temptation to follow
Satan and remained faithful to God are called elect angels. The
angels who rejected God and followed Satan are called fallen
angels or demons.
         e. All angels were created perfect, at the same time,
and with eternal life. They had eternal life before Satan's fall
and had eternal life after making their decision to follow Satan.
All angels made their decision in eternity past when Satan fell.
Only two human beings were created perfect.
         f. The issue was clear to all the angels in the fall
of Satan: either eternal life with God or eternal life with
Satan. One-third of all angels followed Satan. No redemption
was needed for fallen angels because they were created perfect.
They were perfect and only had to choose for God or Satan; they
did not need a redemption solution. Christ did not die for the
angels in any sense of the word because they were already created
perfect and did not need eternal life.
         g. All of the angels had to make the same decision
that Adam made when he faced the fallen woman. Adam had to
decide between the fallen woman outside of the garden and Jesus
Christ inside the garden. He had to make the same choice as all
of the angels made (except Satan). All human beings after the
fall of Adam and the woman are born spiritually dead, and
therefore, need redemption. Man has to make one decision for or
against Christ, just as the perfect angels only had to make one
decision to follow God or Satan.
         h. The fallen angels went from perfection to following
Satan. They were condemned, judged, and sentenced for making
their decision to follow Satan. Their sentence was the lake of
fire forever, Mt 25:41; Rev 20:10. Elect angels will spend
eternity in heaven with God, just as we will. Satan appealed his
sentence and was granted an appeal trial. The angel witnesses
had all been used, so God had to create a new set of creatures to
be witnesses in the appeal trial. But all the witnesses in
Satan's appeal trial are born spiritually dead.
         i. Since all fallen angels in a state of perfection by
creation made their decision in eternity past, no redemption was
necessary. But with mankind it is different. Redemption is only
necessary for those who are spiritually dead. God had to provide
salvation for the human race only.
              (1) Only two human beings were created perfect,
just as all angels were created perfect simultaneously and
designed to live forever.
              (2) Both Adam and Ishah were created perfect,
given perfect environment, given sex for their pleasure as an
expression of soul compatibility, but without eternal life.
              (3) After Satan's condemnation, trial, and
judgment, Satan requested an appeal trial, and God granted that
request with the creation of mankind to be witnesses in that
trial.
              (4) Adam's pattern began like Satan's--Adam was
created perfect; Satan was created perfect.
              (5) Adam's had an original sin; Satan had an
original sin. The fall of Adam is analogous to the fall of
Satan. Adam had to make a decision for or against God, just as
the fallen angels had to make a decision for Satan or for God.
But that is where the analogy stops. Theology wants to push past
this point in the analogy, but you cannot. There was no
redemption in eternity past, except in the divine decrees related
to the future human race.
              (6) The entire realm of angelic creatures were
created simultaneously with no gradual development. The angelic
decision to have eternal life with God or the eternal lake of
fire with Satan was made as a result of Satan's fall. Satan's
fall, not redemption, was the issue in eternity past. They
already had eternal life. Angels were created with eternal life,
not human life. Those who choose to follow Satan follow him
forever.
              (7) Satan himself attacked mankind in a state of
perfection. For mankind there is a new decision issue that did
not exist in the angelic realm called redemption. There is no
redemption issue with angels.
                   (a)   Because there is a new issue called
redemption Jesus Christ became a human being, Heb 1. This is the
origin of the doctrine of the Hypostatic Union. Jesus Christ is
the only person ever born perfect.
                   (b) All human beings are born spiritually
dead. Redemption is for the spiritually dead human race. When
anyone takes the redemption solution, they are not only saved and
will have a superior body to angels but also have a spiritual
life which angels do not have.
                   (c) Angels were all created perfect and made
their decision. We are born spiritually dead and have to make
our decision, Jn 3:18, 36.
              (8) After the fall of man a new dimension in sex
is introduced into the human race--procreation for the
perpetuation of witnesses for Satan's appeal trial, which is the
doctrine of Christian marriage. The corporate testimony of
marriage breaks the back of Satan in every generation of the
Church Age.
              (9) Every person who believes in Christ accepts
the redemption solution provided by the judgment of personal sin
in Christ on the Cross, and they become a witness against Satan
in the appeal trial.
         j. What is the issue in the appeal trial of Satan and
all fallen angels? 1 Cor 15:22, "For as in Adam all die
[spiritually], so also in Christ shall all be made alive." 2 Cor
5:20-21, "Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God
was entreating through us; we beg you as the representative of
Christ, be reconciled to God. He made Him who knew no sin to be
sin as a substitute for us, that we might become the
righteousness from God in Him." We are ambassadors for Christ to
angels.
         k. The doctrine of angelic observation of the human
race.
              (1) In order for there to be order and fairness
in the court, all angelic creatures have been allowed to come
into the court and observe you.
              (2) 1 Tim 3:16, "And by consent of all, great is
the mystery of the spiritual life; the unique One who became
visible by means of the flesh, this same One was vindicated by
agency of the Spirit; He was observed by angels; He was
proclaimed among the Gentiles; He became the object of faith in
the world; He was taken up into the place of glory."
              (3) 1 Cor 4:9, "For I think that God has
exhibited us apostles last of all as men condemned to death
because we have become a spectacle in the arena of life to the
entire universe, to angels and to mankind." Paul is referring to
the end of the gladiator show, when the greatest of the
gladiators fought and were killed. The show lasted all day, and
the best battles were saved for last. Paul is comparing the
spiritual battles which the apostles are waging with the
gladiators.
              (4) 1 Tim 5:21, "I solemnly charge you in the
presence of God and Christ Jesus, and His elect angels, to
maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in
partiality." Paul was telling Timothy not to let anyone in his
congregation push anyone else around or malign them.
              (5) 1 Pet 1:12, "It was revealed to them that
they were not serving themselves but you in these things which
now have been announced to you through those who preach the
gospel to you by agency of the Holy Spirit sent from heaven,
things which angels bend down to get a good clear look."
              (6) Lk 15:10, "In the same way I tell you there
is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who
changes his mind."
       15. The Fall of Satan.
         a. Each of Satan's five boastful presumptions against
the will of God are an expression of negative mental attitude and
reveal the author of negative volition as Satan.
         b. Volition always implies the existence of free will.
Negative volition reveals activities from a creature
independently of God.
         c. There are five "I wills" in Isa 14:12-14 in which
Satan made a decision. Isa 14:12-14, "How you have fallen from
heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut
down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations! But you
said in your heart,
              (1) 'I will ascend to heaven;' Satan wanted to
be the ruler of the third heaven. This was his desire to
displace God as the ruler of the third heaven.
              (2) 'I will raise my throne above the stars of
God,' The stars of God refer to angels, Job 38:7; Rev 12:3-4.
He wants to take over all the angels, not just one third of them.
              (3) 'And I will sit on the mount of the assembly
in the recesses of the north.' This is the place where Satan's
trial took place. He believes he will change God's mind.
              (4) 'I will ascend above the heights of the
clouds;' He believes that once he breaks down his judgment to
the lake of fire, then he will be able to take over from God.
This indicates Satan's obsession to supplant God and to control
all God's creation, which would save him from being cast into the
lake of fire.
              (5) 'I will make myself like the Most High.'
Satan thought he would take God's authority away from Him.
         d. The first sin ever committed was in the realm of
the mind. Sin comes first to the realm of the mind. There is
always some kind of thinking before a person commits a sin.
         e. The failure of Satan is established in Isa 14:15,
"You shall be brought down to hell by the side of the pit." Rev
20:10, "And the devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of
fire and brimstone, where the beast [dictator of the revived
Roman Empire] and the false prophet [dictator of Israel] are
also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
         f. Matt 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His
left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which
has been prepared in the past with the result that it continues
forever for the devil and his angels.'"

B. Rulership of the Devil.
    1. Satan rules all fallen angels.
    2. Satan has greater power than any human and rules the
world through his cosmic systems. Since the fall of Adam, Satan
has been the ruler of this world, Lk 4:5-7; Jn 12:31, 14:30,
16:11; 2 Cor 4:4; Eph 2:2. He is called the god of this world.
         a. The devil rules all unbelievers through demon
possession and demon influence.
         b. The devil rules certain believers though demon
influence (not demon possession) and the involvement of the
believer in the cosmic system. Negative volition in the soul
creates a vacuum in the soul which sucks the doctrine of demons
into the stream of consciousness in the soul.
    3. However, because of the great power experiment of the
Hypostatic Union overflowing into the Church Age, the body of
Christ ruled by the head, our Lord Jesus Christ, has received the
delegated divine power to resist the devil, as per 1 Jn 4:4.
"Greater is He who is in you [omnipotence of God the Holy Spirit]
than He who is in the world [power of Satan as ruler of the world
and cosmic system]."
    4. As ruler of this world, Satan has two designations since
his fall.
         a. Originally, Satan was called Lucifer, the Son of
Light. He was the bright and shining angel in the throne room of
God, the highest ranking creature of all time, the most beautiful
and attractive in appearance and personality.
         b. Once his fall occurred in prehistoric times, Satan
was called SATAN in the Hebrew, which means "enemy and
adversary," having greater power than we have. However, Satan's
power is not greater than God's. This reminds us of God's grace;
He has made available to us His power. As humans, we are an
inferior, rational creation. All angels are superior to us.
Satan is the ARCHON (ruler) of all angels, whose power is
therefore far greater than ours.
         c. But God has made available to us Church Age
believers His power, i.e., the omnipotence of the Father in our
portfolio of invisible assets, the omnipotence of God the Son who
preserves the universe and history daily, and the omnipotence of
God the Holy Spirit who provides the power to execute the
protocol plan inside the divine dynasphere. We have greater
power than Satan.
         d. Even for the unbeliever, God in His grace has
provided a power to resist the power of Satan under the laws of
divine establishment.
         e. Satan's second name is the Greek word DIABOLOS,
which means slanderer, vituperater, traducer. One of the
functions of the devil as the ruler of this world is to express
his antagonism, slander, and enmity, which he does from a
position of great beauty and attractiveness.
         f. So although Satan is far superior to us in every
way, God has provided two factors for us in grace.
              (1) The protection of the laws of divine
establishment. These laws protect our freedom, privacy,
property, and life and unbelievers. We needed this protection
because the power of Satan as the ruler of this world is far
greater than any power we could ever muster. Satan is under
restraint now, though this restraint is removed during the
Tribulation and its results are evident in the tremendous
violence and warfare.
              (2) The protection of the divine institutions.
Throughout all dispensations, even the Tribulation, man continues
to live on the earth because he is protected by the laws of
divine establishment, by divine institution number three, the
family.
    5. Satan expresses his antagonism, slander, and enmity
toward the following things.
         a. Satan is the enemy of Israel. All anti-Semitism is
satanic. Rev 12:4, 13, 15 specifically documents this. In every
generation, he uses all his power to destroy Israel, but he will
never succeed. Beware of anti-Semitism, for it has destroyed so
many nations, such as Spain from its Inquisition of Torquemada,
and almost France from its Edict of Nantes.
         b. Satan is the enemy of all unbelievers. He is the
greatest deceiver of all time. In 2 Cor 4:3-4, he blinds the
minds of unbelievers, which is demon influence or the
demonization of the soul. When the unbeliever rejects Christ as
Savior, he opens himself to the opportunity of demon influence.
              (1) 2 Cor 4:3-4, "If our Gospel be hidden, it is
hidden to them that are lost, in whom the god of this world
[Satan] has blinded the minds of those who believe not, lest the
light of the glorious Gospel of Christ, who is the image of God,
should shine unto them." Cf. Col 2:8.
              (2) 2 Thes 2:7-10 adds some reasons as to why
people remain unbelievers. One is because they are impressed
with miracles. Satan is in the miracle-performing business, with
a bag full of tricks. He knows that many people are stupid and
impressed with miracles. For example, demons can produce illness
(Mk 5), and then be removed to imitate a miraculous healing.
People are entertained by miracles.
              (3) Lk 8:12, "Those beside the road are those who
have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from
their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved."
         c. Satan is specifically the enemy of the Church, the
royal family of God, the new spiritual species, the body of
Christ because God has done more for the individual believer in
the Church Age than ever before.
              (1) The Church is unique because we are the royal
family for our Lord's third royal warrant, a direct result of His
strategic victory in Hypostatic Union. These unique things,
given to the ordinary Christian, make his life the battleground
for this dispensation. Through the forty things given to us at
salvation, we are designed to be a battleground to win a tactical
victory to complement our Lord's strategic victory.
              (2) Rev 2:9, 13, 24 teach that Satan is the enemy
of the Church.
         d. Satan is the enemy of the Church Age believer, 2
Cor 2:11, 11:3; Eph 6:10-12; Jam 4:6-10; 1 Pet 5:6-9.
         e. Satan is opposed to Bible doctrine. He's always
trying to distort it or distract us from it, as is taught in Mt
13:9, 39.
         f. Satan is the enemy of the great power experiment of
the Hypostatic Union, Rev 12:4. That alone caused Satan greater
frustration than almost anything that has ever happened to him.
         g. Satan is the chief antagonist in the extension of
the angelic conflict into human history, Heb 1-2.
         h. Satan is the enemy of nationalism, which he often
opposes with internationalism. This is because nationalism is
divine institution number four. Divine institutions are designed
to keep the human race, believer and unbeliever alike, from
destroying itself. The world is now divided into nations. Prior
to this division, the human race almost destroyed itself. The
first United Nations is found in Gen 11, and it almost destroyed
mankind. That Satan is the enemy of nations in found in Rev
12:9, 20:3, 8, "and he will go out to deceive the nations in the
four corners of the earth."
    6. All world systems apart from the laws of divine
establishment are a part of Satanic policy and administration.
All environmental programs, socialism, and welfare programs are
of Satanic origin.

C. Satan has a power system for control of others.
    1. Satan has a organization of angelic creatures. He has a
system of aristocracy among fallen angels. They demons have
extensive powers.
         a. Abaddon or Apollyon is mentioned in Rev 9:11; Prov
15:11; Job 28:22. He commands one of the demon armies.
         b. Beelzebub is mentioned in Mt 10, 12; Mk 3:22, and
is one of Satan's powerful aristocrats.
    2. How Satan functions as an enemy.
         a. He is the enemy of the Church, Rev 2:9,13,24.
              (1) The Church is called the synagogue of Satan
when it is full of legalism, Rev 2:9.
              (2) When the Church is attacked by religion, it
is called the throne of Satan, Rev 2:13.
              (3) When the Church is attacked by false
doctrine, it is called the deep things of Satan, Rev 2:24.
         b. He is the enemy of Bible doctrine, Mt 13:9, 39.
         c. He is the enemy of Israel, Rev 12:4,13,15.
         d. He is the enemy of Christ, Rev 12:4.
         e. He is the originator of all violence and murder, Jn
8:44; Gen 4:11; 6:4-6.

D. Satan has a strategy to control nations.
    1. His strategy is based on conspiracy and deceit, which
explains the basis of war.
    2. He does manipulate nations, Rev 12:9,23; 20:3,8.
    3. He is the author of every world peace movement, and of
all Soviet strategy.
    4. He is the chief opponent of the laws of divine
establishment and seeks to breakdown freedom and sovereignty of
any nation where establishment, evangelism, and Bible
Christianity is functioning.
    5. Internationalism is Satanic in any form.
    6. His policy is power politics: violence, tyranny, and
change. Part of his function is to malign law and order.
    7. He is the father of religion, liberalism. He is
anti-military and pro welfare-state, pro-communist and against
free enterprise. He is against marriage and the family.

E. Religion is a part of Satan's strategy. Religion is the
creation of Satan's genius to counterfeit the plan of God.
Religion is man seeking to use his own merits, his own works to
gain the approbation of God. Satan's counterfeits of the plan of
God in religion include a counterfeit:
    1. Gospel, 2 Cor 4:3-4, "Even if our gospel is veiled, it
is veiled in those who are perishing. In whose case the god of
the world (Satan) has blinded the minds of the unbeliever that he
might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who
is the image of God."
    2. Ministers, 2 Cor 11:13-15, "Therefore it is not
surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants
of righteousness, whose end shall be according to their deeds."
    3. Doctrine, 2 Tim 4:1, "some will fall away from the faith
paying attention to deceitful spirits and the doctrine of
demons."
    4. Communion table, 1 Cor 10:19-21, "they sacrifice to
demons...you cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of
demons."
    5. Spirituality, Gal 3:2-3.
    6. Righteousness, Mt 19:16-28. The Mosaic Law is distorted
into self-righteousness, which rejects faith in Christ for
relationship with God. This self-righteousness is based on
morality in the cosmic system. Gal 2:16, "Nevertheless knowing
that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through
faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so
that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works
of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be
justified."
    7. Modus vivendi (mode of thinking)--self-righteousness, Mt
23:13-36.
    8. Power and dynamics (miracles, healing, tongues) 2 Thes
2:8-10.
    9. System of gods, 2 Thes 2:3-4, "Let no one in any way
deceive you; for these things will not come unless the apostasy
comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed as the son of
destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is
called God or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the
temple of God, displaying himself as God."

F. False teachers are a part of his strategy, 1 Jn 4:1-3.
    1. They have a phoney, hypocritical facade. They are
bleeding-heart do-gooders, who "love" everyone, being all things
to all men apart from any standards based on Bible doctrine, Mt
7:15. They seek to stimulate your ego, Rom 16:18.
    2. They use human public relations systems and legalistic
flirtation and activism to court believers, Gal 4:17-18; 2 Tim
3:5-7.
    3. They appeal to human ego, arrogance, and pride to
distract believers from grace, 2 Cor 10:12. They use mutual
admiration society ideas. They love to counsel others to promote
their arrogance.
    4. They promote idolatry as a part of Satan's communion
table, Hab 2:18-19.
    5. They promote legalism as a system of pseudo-
spirituality, 1 Tim 1:7-8. They encourage people to gossip.
    6. They possess a false spirit, 1 Jn 4:1-3, "because many
false teachers have gone out into the world." They are
inspirational but do not function by the power of the Holy
Spirit.

G. Satan has a specific policy--evil.
    1. This was first seen in the tree of the knowledge of good
and evil.
    2. See also the Doctrine of Evil.
    3. Human good is the application of evil.
    4. 2 Tim 3:13. All reversionists have been deceived by
Satan to the extent they are influenced by good and evil.
    5. 2 Tim 2:25-26. The pastor is to take disciplinary
action toward those opposed to doctrinal teaching, so that they
will recover from reversionism and be delivered from the devil's
trap.
    6. Chafer's Systematic Theology, Vol. II, pp. 100, 108-110,
gives a fantastic description of Satan's system of evil.

H. Satan has a strategy regarding the Cross.
    1. Satan's greatest strategy is the doctrinal attack on the
Cross and principle of salvation by faith alone. "If our gospel
is hidden, it is hidden to them who are lost, that the god of
this world might blind the minds of those who do not believe."
This attack is accomplished by adding various types of works to
salvation, such as: making Christ lord of your life, walking an
isle or raising your hand, inviting Christ into your heart or
into your life, etc. Satan must obscure that fact that salvation
is by faith alone.
    2. The genetic attack on the line of Christ.
         a. Through Adam's seed.
              (1) After the original sin of Adam and the woman,
God came into the Garden of Eden and promised eternal salvation.
Adam was promised that the line of Christ would come through the
children of Adam and Eve. Satan inspired Cain to murder Abel who
was a believer to keep the Savior from coming into the world.
Seth also became a believer, so the line of Christ comes down
through Seth.
              (2) Gen 6:1-3 tells of the angelic attack through
sexual intercourse to destroy true humanity on the earth. Except
for Noah and his family, there were only half angel half human
beings on the earth.
         b. Through Abraham's seed. God promised that the line
of salvation would come down through the child of Abraham. When
Abraham became a new racial species at age ninety-nine, sexual
ability was restored to Abraham and Sarah and the line of Christ
came down through Isaac, Jacob, and Judah. There were several
attacks on the line of Abraham. Sarah had to be delivered from
being in the harem of an Egyptian king, Gen 12:10-20. Pharaoh's
mandate to kill all the first born children was an attack upon
the line of Christ. Pharaoh's attempt to annihilate Israel was
an attack upon the line of Christ, Ex 14:13ff.
         c. Through David's seed.
              (1) The case of the son of Jehoshaphat.
Jehoshaphat had a son, Jehoram, who he married off to a princess
of a Gentile nation in order to make an alliance, 2 Chr 18:1.
Jehoram killed all his brothers, the royal seed, 2 Chr 21:4. The
Arabs killed all the sons of Jehoram except one, 2 Chr 21:16-
22:1. The line was down to one person through whom the line of
Christ could come.
              (2) The case of Hezekiah, who was childless when
attacked by the king of Assyria, Isa 36:1. God preserved him
until his son was born.
              (3) One of the greatest attacks was the Haman
conspiracy to annihilate all Jews, the book of Esther.
         d. Through Joseph's seed. Joseph was tempted to
divorce Mary since she was pregnant prior to the consummation of
the marriage. Herod sent a command to kill the royal line of
Israel, Mt 2:13-18; Rev 12:4.
    3. The necessity for the humanity of Christ.
         a. Jesus Christ had to become true humanity to become
the savior of the world. Eph 2:15, Col 1:22, Phil 2:2-8, Heb
10:5-10, 19-20, and 1 Pet 2:24, 1 Pet 3:18 tell us that it was
the humanity of Christ that was judged.
              (1) Jesus Christ, as God, cannot go to the Cross
because deity can have nothing to do with sin except condemn it.
Sins cannot be imputed to deity. Only perfect true humanity
fulfills the concept of "the lamb without spot and without
blemish."
              (2) "This is My body which is given for you"
indicates that it was not His deity that suffered spiritual death
on the Cross but His perfect humanity that was judged for our
sins.
         b. Jesus Christ had to be true humanity to be the
mediator between God and man. The mediator must be equal with
both parties; therefore, Jesus Christ must be true God and true
man to be equal with both parties. Job 9:32-33; 1 Tim 2:5-6,
"For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind--
the man Christ Jesus who gave Himself a ransom as a substitute
for all, a testimony in its own times."
         c. Jesus Christ had to become true humanity to be our
high priest after the order of Melchizedek. The high priest had
to be both a king and a priest, Heb 7, 10. Under the Jewish
system, Jesus Christ was not qualified to be a priest since He
came from the ruling tribe of Judah, not the priestly tribe of
Levi. He is a priest under the King-Priest line.
         d. Jesus Christ came to fulfill the unconditional
Davidic covenant. God promised David that he would have a son
who would reign forever. David's greater son is the Lord Jesus
Christ. 2 Sam 7:8-16; Ps 89:20-37.
    4. Doctrinal attacks on the Cross.
         a. Limited atonement is a great doctrinal attack upon
the Cross. Christ died for the sins of the entire world, not
just for the sins of the elect. Satan had a strategy regarding
the Cross: to eliminate the idea that man has a free will, a
volition--the idea that Christ died for all members of the human
race so that they could make a choice.
         b. The erroneous idea that Christ bled to death on the
Cross. The blood of Christ is a metaphor for redemption,
reconciliation, propitiation, imputation, unlimited atonement,
and justification. This strategy attempts to confuse people into
believing that Christ died physically (rather than spiritually)
for our sins.

I. Satan has a strategy regarding Israel: anti-Semitism.
    1. The divine attitude toward anti-Semitism is given in Gen
12:3, "I will bless those who bless you, but the one who curses
[or despises] you I will curse, and through you all the races
[individuals and nations] of the earth shall be blessed."
    2. Anti-Semitism is a person, group, organization, or
nation who is hostile to the Jews. It does not refer to all the
descendants of Shem, but only to the Jews.
    3. Anti-Semitism is hatred, intolerance, prejudice,
opposition, persecution, and violent opposition to the Jewish
race. Rev 12 details the future of anti-Semitism during the
Tribulation.
    4. Satan has two major objectives in the strategy of anti-
Semitism.
         a. His historical objective was to keep our Lord Jesus
Christ from going to the Cross. This strategy failed.
         b. His prophetical objective is to destroy Israel so
that the four unconditional covenants cannot be fulfilled at the
second Advent.
    5. There is a correlation between the rise and fall of
nations and their attitude toward the Jew. Individuals, nations,
and empires have been destroyed by anti-Semitism. Individuals,
nations, and empires have been blessed by kindly treatment of the
Jews.

J. Satan has a strategy against believers and the Church.
    1. Some of Satan's strategies include:
         a. Satanic strategy is to discredit the Canon of
Scripture with emphasis on the mystery doctrine of the Church
Age.
         b. Satanic strategy is to discredit believers through
involving them in the cosmic system and Christian degeneracy, so
that they shock other believers who then get out of fellowship
and involved in false doctrine trying to explain them away.
         c. Satanic strategy is to encourage rejection of Bible
doctrine and to by-pass and ignore post salvation epistemological
rehabilitation by emphasizing experience. Satanic strategy is to
hinder or distract believers from the execution of the protocol
plan of God. Satan tries to distract the believer from
postsalvation epistemological rehabilitation in the following
ways.
              (1) Through negative volition toward the teaching
of the Word of God and Bible doctrine.
              (2) Through getting the believer out of
fellowship so that there is no filling of the Spirit.
              (3) Through getting the believer to understand
doctrine academically rather than spiritually.
              (4) Through hindering the circulation of doctrine
in the stream of consciousness through the filling of the Spirit.
              (5) Through the sin nature and the garbage from
the subconscious of the soul. Satan tries to control the
believer through the old sin nature by tempting the believer to
commit sin and to perform good deeds. Believers are distracted
into thinking that simple morality is the Christian way of life.
         d. All the strategies of Satan are directed toward the
free will of mankind, not the sovereignty of God.
    2. 2 Cor 2:11 states the general principle, "hold your
ground against the devil, in order that no advantage be taken of
us by Satan; for we are not ignorant of his strategies." Satan
has a strategy to keep the believer in the cosmic system, Jam
4:6-8, 1 Jn 2:15-18, 1 Jn 3:4-12.
    3. Satan is the enemy of the Church.
         a. The Church is attacked by legalism which in Rev 2:9
is called "the synagogue of Satan."
         b. The Church is attacked by religion which is called
"the throne of Satan" in Rev 2:13.
         c. The Church is attacked by false doctrine which in
Rev 2:24 is called "the deep things of Satan."
    4. Satan's strategies against believers include the
following.
         a. He tries to make believers feel guilty. He accuses
believers of sin, therefore, of being under his control, Job
1:6-11; Zech 3:1-2; Rev 12:9-10. However, Jesus Christ defends
us in heaven, 1 Jn 2:1-2.
         b. Satan sponsors reversionism and all principles
related to Christian degeneracy, 1 Cor 10:19-21; 2 Cor 11:3,
13-15.
         c. Satan sponsors fear of death and anger to distract
the believer from the protocol plan, Heb 2:14-15.
         d. He seeks to frustrate the will of God with regard
to your life.
              (1) The mental will of God, i.e., Bible doctrine,
Rom 12:2; Eph 4:14.
              (2) The geographical will of God for you, 1 Thes
2:18.
              (3) The operational will of God for you, James
4:7-8; Gal 5:7.
         e. Satan tries to neutralize consistent doctrinal
perception, metabolization and application (1 Chr 21:1; 1 Cor
10:19-21; 1 Cor 4:17-18; 2 Cor 11:3, 13-15; 1 Tim 4:11) through:
              (1) worry, fear, anxiety, mental attitude sins,
and reaction to historical disaster, 1 Pet 5:7-9;
              (2) getting the believer to be disobedient to the
Word and the Pastor's authority involved in teaching it;
              (3) ignoring doctrine you have learned, 1 Chr
21:1.
         f. Satan tries to destroy the believer's focus. He
uses both cosmic one and cosmic two (the two cosmic systems) to
keep the believer from occupation with Christ.
              (1) He causes you to get your eyes on self and
feel sorry for self, Gen 3:4-5; 1 Kg 19:10, 14; 1 Cor 1:10-11.
              (2) Satan causes you to get your eyes on people,
Gen 19:28, 20:1; Jer 17:5.
              (3) He causes you to get your eyes on things, Heb
13:5-6.
         g. Satan sponsors Christian activism, trying to get
the believer to become involved in improvement of his (Satan's)
world through becoming occupied with temporal solutions, such as:
improving the environment, "the greatest good for the greatest
number," socialism, social action, the social Gospel, welfare
state, and temporal solutions to man's problems.
    5. God allows Satan to administer the momentum tests in
which he attempts to keep the believer from advancing to
maturity.
    6. We are commanded in Eph 4:27, "And stop giving
opportunity to the devil."
         a. We are on the defensive against Satan and are never
commanded to go on the offensive against Satan. The Ephesian
believers were taking offensive action against Satan and Paul
commanded them to stop doing what they were already doing.
         b. Believers serve Satan through many things like
Christian activism, which plays right into the hands of Satan.
We give opportunity to the devil in two ways.
              (1) Through the failure to execute the unique
spiritual life of the Church Age and reach Jeshurun status.
              (2) To live a life in perpetual carnality and die
the sin face-to-face with death.

K. Satan has a strategy concerning the unbeliever.
    1. He blinds the unbeliever's mind to the Gospel and
motivates every form of unbeliever reversionism, 2 Pet 2; 2 Cor
4:3-4; Lk 8:12; 2 Thes 2:7-10, Rom 1. He takes the gospel away
from their right lobes so that they may not believe.
    2. When Satan cannot deceive through good and evil, he uses
religion, Col 2:8; Rev 17. He uses religion to blind the mind.
    3. Whenever the unbeliever rejects establishment or the
believer rejects doctrine or establishment, he falls into the
Satanic sphere of influence.
    4. Satan's strategy regarding the cosmic dynaspheres is
found in 2 Cor 4:3-4 and 2 Thes 2:7-10.

L. Satan has a strategy to deify mankind, Gen 3:5.

M. Satan has a strategy to indwell or possess unbelievers to
hinder salvation, or to use believers and unbelievers in his
service. These are called the disciples of Satan, 1 John.

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

quixoticjack — Wed, 13 May 2009 21:48:49 GMT

QJ: You simply cannot address point by point, can you? So many points to address, too, but silence.

Just try one, on topic:

1. What is it that you fail to comprehend concerning the Founding Fathers' guidance (fueled by fears) on separation of church and state?

a) Do you believe God/Jesus should

be in the public schools?

b) Do you believe God/Jesus should

be represented in our courtrooms;

and in all government institutions?

The question (s) is not difficult, and you should be able to, point by point, explain and support your position.

Can you do that?

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

Moosemose — Thu, 14 May 2009 00:31:09 GMT

I have already addressed the first topic But the latter is new to me. So Heres' Not just my thoughts, rather the Builders of our Nation. So U got a Problem with this go tell them!!! Enjoy!!! John

Throughout history, nations have built monuments, usually to record victories in battle or to honor their gods. Every nation's monuments and national symbols reflect the heart of the people and identify what they believe is the source of their nation's greatness and achievements.

However, America's monuments were not built to record countries conquered or battles won. Our memorials contain the declaration that the source of our birth, liberty, and greatness is God.

A tour of our historic sites reveals that America was a nation birthed by men who had a firm reliance upon Almighty God and His Son Jesus Christ.

The Washington Monument
From the tallest structure in Washington a message of "Praise be to God" goes forth. Engraved upon the aluminum capstone on the top of this 555-foot monument is Laus Deo. Inside the structure are carved tribute blocks with many Godly messages: "Holiness to the Lord," "Search the Scriptures," "The memory of the just is blessed," and others.

The Library of Congress
Within the Great Hall of the Jefferson Building are two cases, one containing a Gutenberg Bible and the other a hand-copied Giant Bible of Mainz. The display of these two Bibles is appropriate because, in the words of President Andrew Jackson, "The Bible is the rock upon which our republic rests." Many biblical inscriptions can be found on the ceiling and walls.

In the Main Reading Room are statues and quotes representing fields of knowledge. Moses and Paul represent religion, with the inscription, "What doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy and to walk humbly with thy God?"

The Supreme Court
The biblical foundation of American law is evidenced throughout this building. On the outside East Pediment is a marble relief of Moses holding tablets containing the Ten Commandments. Engraved on the oak doors at the entrance of the Court Chamber are the Roman numerals I through X, and above the heads of the justices is a carved marble relief with a large stone tablet containing I through X (each set of numerals represents ancient law -- that is, the Ten Commandments).

The Capitol Building
All of the eight large paintings in the Rotunda present aspects of our Christian history, including The Baptism of Pocahontas and Departure of the Pilgrims from Holland which depicts the Pilgrims observing a day of prayer and fasting.

"In God We Trust," our national motto, is inscribed in letters of gold behind the speaker's rostrum in the House Chamber. Also in this chamber, above the central Gallery door, is a marble relief of Moses, the greatest of 23 noted law-givers.

The White House
An inscription by the first president to inhabit the White House, John Adams, is cut into the marble facing of the State Dining Room fireplace. It reads: "I pray Heaven to Bestow the Best of Blessings on THIS HOUSE and on All that shall hereafter Inhabit it. May none but Honest and Wise Men ever rule under this Roof."

Many other monuments and buildings in Washington proclaim America's faith in God. On the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Arlington National Cemetery is the inscription: "Here rests in honored glory an American soldier known but to God."

On the front facade of Union Station three scripture verses are engraved including, "Thou has put all things under his feet" and "The truth shall make you free." Lincoln's words on his memorial exclaim "that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom."

This brief tour of our nation's capital reveals that Christianity is the source of America's liberty and prosperity. In the words of the U.S. House of Representatives in 1854: "The great vital element in our system is the belief of our people in the pure doctrines and divine truths of the gospel of Jesus Christ."

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

quixoticjack — Thu, 14 May 2009 00:47:13 GMT

ARTICLE 11 "As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion, -- [John Adams, 1797-05-27, Article 11, Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the US and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary. Treaties and Other International Acts of America, ed. Hunter Miller]

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

Moosemose — Thu, 14 May 2009 04:27:13 GMT

Is there a Q. in that somewhere or are U saying U didn't like the "Capital Tour"so U had to go to far away Paris for Refutation Attempts??? Face it, this Country was Based on our Forefathers Judeao Christian God so much they CARVED IT IN STONE & none of the Wierd out of Context quotes U post will ever Erase Our Monuments that were APPROVED by the Majority to Establish for All Time just Who we Established this Great Nation upon!!! I'm surprised U haven't read the US Constitution & All 50 of the States Constitutions??? John

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

quixoticjack — Thu, 14 May 2009 05:09:51 GMT

Is there a Q. in that somewhere or are U saying U didn't like the "Capital Tour"so U had to go to far away Paris for Refutation Attempts???................QJ: No, I went to Founding Father source. I'm wondering what kind of history you learned, sir, since you seem to quite ignorant of America's beginnings............... Face it, this Country was Based on our Forefathers Judeao Christian God so much they CARVED IT IN STONE ........................QJ: No, that, of course, is a lie. Check out who the Founding Fathers were, the MAIN players. NONE of them were CHRISTIANS, none of them accepted THE TRINITY. Not Washington, not Franklin, not Madison, not Jefferson, not Adams. Read your history.........................& none of the Wierd out of Context quotes U post will ever Erase Our Monuments that were APPROVED by the Majority to Establish for All Time just Who we Established this Great Nation upon!!!.........................Qj: Again, your extreme ignorance on display. What does Jefferson say about religion and government? What does Madison say? Adams? Franklin? Jefferson? You have no clue because you're ignornant of those people and what they said. But that ignorance can be buffered via an engine search................... I'm surprised U haven't read the US Constitution & All 50 of the States Constitutions??? ...............QJ: You've displayed too much ignorance, not only of the history of your nation, and the Constitution (and the Bible) that you can't grasp that your sentiments and words put you at extreme odds with the principles of America, and in line with the countries who've been dominated by religion. Iran comes to mind. Behind the curtain is the controlling forces of that country's religion. Afghanistan, a premium example of your kind of thinking. In addition to your extreme ignorance of all that entails how things work in our country, you trot out the lie of America being founded on Judeo/Christian God. Entertain the fact that most of the Founding Fathers were Deists. Does that matter to your lie? Do you care to investigate to see how it all shook out in that time frame? As a true American, you should feel the need to become educated and not wallow in the urban myth tripe that many Christians are so prone to repeat. From the Deist reality, to the fact that America used the British Model of Common Law (dispelling the lie about the Ten Commandments), it's all waiting for you to discover in a local library or internet. Never too old, or too late, to learn.

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

Tippy — Thu, 14 May 2009 05:33:23 GMT

MooseMose,

I am just curious, since you are the one with the D.D., what did you do on the National Day of Prayer? Did you have a ceremony? Did you rally the Saints together for prayer? You are a leader with a D.D. so I was wondering, what did you do in your community?

The gospel is something that you should be able to explain in simple terms. Although according to you, I am unlearned and have no formal Bible training, I do know the word of God. I don't have to rely on inter-net articles because God's word is written in my heart. I read my Bible through and through year after year. I also have understanding of what I am reading, thanks to the Holy Ghost. The Bible tells us to study to show ourselves approved.

You see I can say like David said in Psalms 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. Like in Psalms 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. Jesus spoke in John 17:16 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Get the word on the inside of you and then you will be able speak boldly. That piece of paper and the D.D. will not be able to save you, but being born again with the baptism of the Holy Ghost is the only way that you can be saved. Get the word of God in your heart and stop pulling it from the computer. Then and only then can you call me not formally trained. I have the best teacher in the world, do you? p

Be Blessed

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

quixoticjack — Thu, 14 May 2009 05:53:19 GMT

but being born again with the baptism of the Holy Ghost is the only way that you can be saved. .................QJ: Too late. Jaknik or Nikjak, one of those jaks, shot him and he vaporized. Now, just what or who could be that guiding voice in your heart and mind? Not the Holy Ghost. I can think of only one other voice source other than God, himself. Could it be THAT voice?

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

quixoticjack — Thu, 14 May 2009 06:01:12 GMT

I also have understanding of what I am reading, thanks to the Holy Ghost...................QJ: Well, the Holy Ghost had better shape up, since you didn't even know that Paul claimed to have visited heaven....

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

Tippy — Thu, 14 May 2009 06:26:07 GMT

You wish :)

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

quixoticjack — Thu, 14 May 2009 06:39:49 GMT

You wish :)..................QJ: Did Paul visit heaven, or not? I assume you've had plenty of time to figure it out. If you still say no, then there is NO Holy Ghost who's been guiding you. __________________ BTW. Moosemose, no Founding Father accepted a Holy Ghost......

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

Tippy — Thu, 14 May 2009 06:47:34 GMT

I am not going back through that again, I thought I told you that in another forum. Whether you say there is a Holy Ghost or not, does not matter to me as long as I know the truth.

We also have discussed the fact that you will know it to,pretty soon.

Be Blessed

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

quixoticjack — Thu, 14 May 2009 07:03:39 GMT

I am not going back through that again, I thought I told you that in another forum..............QJ: The only thing I recall is that you denied that Paul was taken up into heaven. By this time, I thought, perhsps, you'd found out that he, indeed, was talking about himself? Why is this important? Well, if you have discovered the truth of these verses, you should admit it. If you haven't, and still stick to your guns, ok. But,if you have, then I expect the "woman enough" in you, to tell me of the discovery. I know you're a bit stubborn :) But, it's important. Anyway, G'night..................I hope Moose looks up Deists...:)

...........Hey, Moosemose, was Paul taken up into heaven?

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

Tippy — Thu, 14 May 2009 07:08:36 GMT

I have researched it, some say yes he was talking in third person and some say no. I will have to go back through the verses again for myself. I will let you know what I think after I research it thoroughly. Is that Ok with you Mr? Well anyway good night again.

Be Blessed

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

Tippy — Thu, 14 May 2009 07:25:17 GMT

Quixotic,

Since I was not sleepy and I know how important this is to you, I went back through the scriptures. This is my finding:

There were two men, mortal men, who have been in heaven since the day of Pentecost. Paul was caught up to the third heaven. (2 Cor. 12.) Then we find John invited up to heaven; and saw the One who sat on the throne, the Lord God Almighty. Rev 1:10-20

You were right :) Did I stroke your ego?

I do apologize for not researching it further, but you already know how stubborn I am right? :)

Have a good night.

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

Moosemose — Thu, 14 May 2009 14:14:24 GMT

Again with the DENIAL OF GOD!!! The Simple Truth is that GOD is OUR SOURCE, THE BASIS OF OUR FORM OF GOVERNMENT AND WE STATE IT IN OUR FOUNDING DOCUMENTS NATIONALLY & IN THE STATES!!! I feel really sorry for U to deny Ur Creator as U do, but in the End Times this is the way it will be. People will call Good Evil & Evil Good according to Scripture. People will turn to "Learned Men" for help, but they won't be able to help because God is in Control!!! Wise up, U weren't Evolved from "Slime", God Created U ! Turn to Him before the End that Ur Soul may live in Heaven instead of Hell Forever!!! John

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

Moosemose — Thu, 14 May 2009 14:32:29 GMT

I don't think U can get away from Ur "Emotions" can U Amber/Tippy??? Why if I wasn't a Christian Filled with the Spirit would I have spent virtually my ENTIRE LIFE getting a Theological Education & now even Disabled, still spend my last days here on the Web trying to reach People by Answering their Questions to my Fullest??? What I post here are my work primarilly from Seminary & is the most complete I can give, not wanting any Doubt in anyones Mind. Ur Not used to it I can see, so why don't U "Step Up" Ur Learning & perhaps get some "Study Helps" so that U will know the "Hows & Whys' of Gods' Total Plan so that U "Will be a workman fully furnished unto all good works Rightly Dividing the Word". John

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

quixoticjack — Thu, 14 May 2009 18:03:01 GMT

There were two men, mortal men, who have been in heaven since the day of Pentecost. Paul was caught up to the third heaven...............................QJ: So he said. Remembering that this is the classic "witness of one" scenario. Believer beware................. Then we find John invited up to heaven;.....................QJ: Another "witness of one". Benny Hinn has claimed to have had Jesus in his bedroom, along with a couple of angels. John (nobody has determined what John) was relating what he claimed to be a "vision". The relay of the nonsense, of course, caused Thomas Jefferson to declare him a raving maniac.................. and saw the One who sat on the throne, the Lord God Almighty....................QJ: Just think, God "sitting" just like a human does.................. You were right :) Did I stroke your ego? .......................QJ: I like the sound of that, but no, the ego is intact and doing ok, and doesn't need stroking................... I do apologize for not researching it further, but you already know how stubborn I am right? :)..............................Qj: Sure do. What prompted this entreaty was your claim of the Holy Ghost guiding your Bible reading. Obviously, that's hyperbole since he missed a beat concerning Paul. When a claim such as yours is made, the i's should be dotted, the t's crossed..............................Have a good night..............................QJ: Thanks, I did. :)

RE: Public Support for Christians?.........I'll Pass!

quixoticjack — Thu, 14 May 2009 18:27:20 GMT

Again with the DENIAL OF GOD!!!......................

.QJ: John, step back and let your mind reflect.

Instead of "denial" think in terms of unbelief. For example, do you believe in reincarnation? No, you don't. Why not? Because you have no reasons to. All you know about reincarnation are assertions from those who believe in reincarnation.

Now, do you believe that Zeus existed? After all, no one ever proved he did not exist. But, no, you don't believe that Zeus existed. And it's because there are no real reasons to do so.

Hinduism has many gods, and you don't believe in any of them. Why not? Same scenario, there are no bona fide reasons for doing so, other than believers telling you they're real without any ways to prove the assertions.

There is no difference in an unbelief in your assertion of a God. You cannot supply real reasons for your God's existence, just as all the other religions can't supply reasons.

In other words, I believe in one less god than you do..

The Simple Truth is that GOD is OUR SOURCE,.................

QJ: No, the TRUTH is that you've made a religious assertion stemming from your particular society and training, just like all those others saying the same things about their gods and beliefs....

THE BASIS OF OUR FORM OF GOVERNMENT AND WE STATE IT IN OUR FOUNDING DOCUMENTS NATIONALLY & IN THE STATES!!! .

QJ: No, this is a lie and easily debunked...

.I feel really sorry for U to deny Ur Creator as U do,..

.QJ: This is so typical of the fundamentalist, ethnocentric minded believer, who has nothing but assertions.

And again, there is no denial. There is simply a non belief due to non support other than claims.

As far as a Creator is concerned, instead of a "god" metaphor, my metaphor is "something." I don't deny that there is "something" but I don't know what that something is. But that doesn't translate that I should accept assertions and superstitions.

Like Einstein, I don't know. Of course, neither do you.

You refer to the "something" as "god". I refer to the "something" as "something."....

Wise up, U weren't Evolved from "Slime", God Created U !......

...QJ: No, nobody knows how it all occurred. The "slime" is the believers' urban myth, and goes to ignorance................

Turn to Him before the End that Ur Soul may live in Heaven instead of Hell Forever!!!..................

.QJ: Get real, John. You don't even know what a soul is.

Plus, remember that in heaven you are supposed to have a "heavenly" body just like Jesus. However, no more broiled fish for Jesus or for you, since no one will have stomachs.

Odd, but that's what odd Paul said.

Where is the "soul", whatever a soul is, in this kind of mix?

And too, you can't explain heaven, hell; you don't know what they are, where they are, and what will be going on.

All of this from a supposedly revealed religion.

What you have are juvenile stories, infantile in structure.

Spirits? You have no clue what a spirit is, or is not.

Then, a 1500 hundred mile long, wide and high, prefabricated city descends and people with no stomachs live there for 1000 years--doing what? You don't know.

No stomachs, no need for commerce. No commerce, what's to do?

Why, worship 24/7, Jesus, right?

Just think, people with no stomachs worshipping Jesus who sits on a throne, his emanating light washing over the 1500 mile structure, and....and.....and?

Terribly silly on the surface, but beneath the surface, insanity.....Einstein said "childish", a euphemism, I'm sure, for insanity.