My husband signed a document without reading it

shyandnaked — Sun, 22 Mar 2009 01:10:52 GMT

I have a little dilemma. Last week our neighbor across the street who we are just getting to know even though they have lived here about 8 years, asked my husband last minute to come over to their home to sign a document as a "witness" for them. My husband is a nice guy and being very trusting and easygoing, he signed as a witness on the document without even reading what he was signing. He was just told by another man present who claimed to be a notary public that he was witnessing that he knew our neighbors. Well, when I found out he didn't read the document, I became concerned and I called the woman and asked if we could see exactly what it was he signed. Well she told me she had the papers on file and would look them up if I needed to see them, but tried to assure me they were good people and it was just a witness form. I said ok, but after I slept on the issue, I awoke feeling we should see that document. These people are retired professional people and seem pleasant enough, but they mentioned they are moving within a year as the taxes are too high and the house is too big. They are from another country as well. She knew she needed a witness for these papers, so she had time to prepare one of her adult children to be present. Besides, most notaries don't require a witness. They just need a license to prove who you are. My husband wasn't asked for identification to prove he was a valid witness. With all the scams out there, I am wanting to be sure he didn't co-sign something and get stuck with a bill. I emailed her and asked her to see a copy of the paperwork and now she is saying she doesn't have a signed copy and has to wait for the paperwork to go through a process before she is sent a copy to show me. I have been personally burned in the past by signing things I did not read so I am not very trusting of many people. Am I being unreasonable and rude to be asking this woman to see the document? She said it was a personal document and seems to be getting her story a little mixed up each time I email or talk to her. I am beginning to get anxious over this. How much time should I give her to show me the documents? I asked the name of the group she is dealing with for her "deal" and I am awaiting to see if she will give me their name. My husband thinks I am being too untrusting of them. Please give me some opinions. Thanks.

RE: My husband signed a document without reading it

Lavern — Sun, 22 Mar 2009 02:56:56 GMT

I think you should give her one more day and tell her you will be going to the police if she does not show it to you.

RE: My husband signed a document without reading it

OronD — Sun, 22 Mar 2009 16:15:46 GMT

Hi, ----------- You are perfectly right !. You are NOT overdoing it and you do NOT exaggerate. You behave as any smart person would do. We have to adopt several basic rules: 1). Never sign a paper without reading it carefully. 2). Always get a copy of what you signed. 3). Understand what are the results / implications / responsibilities of signing. 4). Never be quick to sign documents that you don't have to. Send her an official letter saying that your husband didn't read that paper and that you demand to get a copy. Tell them that if you don't get an official copy within 48 hours you are going to the police. --------- Best regards,

RE: My husband signed a document without reading it

George~ — Sun, 22 Mar 2009 16:35:15 GMT

If I am understsnding you correctly, All your husband did was sign his name to a paper witnessing that the person that signed the paper, is who they stated they are.

In other words, he did not do anything, but just say (by signing his name) that the person (neighbor) signing the document, is who they say they are.

He only witnessed a signature. Therefore, he is not in any way responsible for what is in the document.

What did the notary tell him he was signing?

George~

RE: My husband signed a document without reading it

George~ — Sun, 22 Mar 2009 16:49:12 GMT

I read it again and see that the notary said he was just witnessing that he knew the neighbor. That sounds right. That should be ok. Like I stated in my previous post, that is generally what a witness does. Just state he knows the neighbor and it is, the neighbor signing the document.

Example: my neighbor asked me to witness his signature. I signed my name to state, that he did sign it. The document was his "Last Will" I would have no reason to see his will. The notary is the real witness to the document anyway and would be responsible for the merit and content of the document, and it's validity

This is hard to state, I hope you understand.

RE: My husband signed a document without reading it

shyandnaked — Sun, 22 Mar 2009 17:03:00 GMT

Hi George, Yes, you are basically correct. The neighbors originally told my husband that they needed a witness on the document to verify that they are who they say they are. However, my concern is that he did not read what he was signing. The neighbor told him it was a will and the man who was there and wanted him to sign the papers was a notary. Well, as far as I know, that is the reason one hires a notary. THEY are the witness. Normally you don't need another witness. The person shows ID as to who they are and the notary signs and seals the document right then and there. (I just used one the other day). My concern is that I have been through some bad experiences signing a few documents in the past without reading and it got me into trouble. When I called the neighbor to ask what hubby signed, she then told me a different story than she told my husband. She first said she had the papers in her file if I needed to see them. She sort of tried to make me feel guilty for asking to see them so I said, to forget it. The next day, my women's instinct came into play and I thought again we should see what he signed. Suddenly, the papers were not in her file and she said I would have to wait until the papers went through and were sent back to her. She kind of said it had personal information and tried to offer me references of long term friends to call to verify their character. If the deed was so personal, why didn't she have one of those friends witness it? Also, she has a family member about 25 minutes away. The "notary" did not explain what was in the document, just that my husband was a witness as to who these neighbors are. The neighbor originally told my husband it was a will (at least that's what he recalls), and then she told me the next day it was about a piece of land her husband's sister had. Since her facts fluctuated, a red flag went up for me and also I emailed her to ask what "group" she was doing business with as she had also told me the group she was doing business with was good. I have not heard from her since I asked what group she was using. If she thinks I am being too nosy and might call them and ruin her deal, then why did she ask my husband in the first place? I had no intentions to call her group, but I do want to know that they are a reputable group. George, I get a scam a day on the phone and/or internet. Our state governor went to jail as did the neighboring town's mayor for corruption. I hardly know this woman and her husband. I did have them over for Christmas and that's about all I know. They are moving in a year or less and that also concerns me that we might be stuck with a co-signed bill. Am I being too paranoid ya think? I am really anxious about this. Been burned before. Gosh you men are too trusting! lol

RE: My husband signed a document without reading it

shyandnaked — Sun, 22 Mar 2009 17:11:33 GMT

George, I am friends with your neighbor and he told me he left you 5 elephants and 12 donkeys in his will. LOL. I hope you have the land for them. Seriously, I understand what you are saying. That's what my husband feels as well. I guess you have to know my husband and how gullible he is, and also know the hell I went through signing something I didn't read. I have become an extremely, maybe overly cautious person from my life's experiences. I DO appreciate your input very much. It's good to get all sorts of opinions and I thank ALL of you. I tend to go with the women's comments though. I'll let you know what transpires and if we are still speaking neighbors after this. (Or speaking spouses, lol)

RE: My husband signed a document without reading it

citrine1 — Sun, 22 Mar 2009 17:50:31 GMT

You have great advice from others. Your husband should not have signed anything without reading it first. And, you do have reason enough to be suspicious. A notary never ever asks anyone to witness a signature. They are the legal witness. If all he signed was a statement attesting to the fact that he witnessed their signature it should not be a problem for them to let you read that statement. They don't have to allow you to read the whole document only the part he signed. Being from a foreign country, too, increases the chances that you have been scammed. I think it might be a good idea to contact police now before they have a chance to leave the country.

RE: My husband signed a document without reading it

profitbob — Sun, 22 Mar 2009 18:04:06 GMT

If your husband at least read the line he signed on and it was marked "witness" then everything is okay. If it didn't say "witness", then he could have signed anything (since he didn't read it), and you may very well be co-signors to something, or given away your house.

Having witnesses sign something is pretty common, and I have had my neighbors sign as witnesses before for myself.

It does sound strange that the nieghbors story would keep changing, and it seems suspicious. You need to talk to a lawyer, and you should have done that already. Most contracts have a time limit to back out after signing, but that is three days in which to cancel. And of course, you have to know who to cancel the contract with, which your husband doesn't.

This was a pretty bad mistake on your husband's part if he didn't sign merely as a witness. Even as a witness he should have read enough to see what he was witnessing, whether it was the person's identity, or the performance of some act (such as witnesses to a marriage ceremony), or the length of residence in their home. There are lots of scam artists in my area, and many of them are trusted by their family friends and neighbors until they slip away with the money.

So, ask your husband if he is sure that the spot he signed was marked "witness". Then he is only liable for mis-witnessing at the most and not the contract/deed/credit application he may have signed. Not that documents can't be altered after the fact, with the witness word painted out and replaced with some other designation if these are serious scam artists willing to do anything including forgery.

In the future your husband should refrain from signing anything without giving it to you first. If he does, you need to make the arrangements as are done for the feeble minded where their signature on any document can be rescinded on your order. Not that I am saying your husband is feeble-minded, but this is pretty dangerous activity to sign things you don't read. He might have signed off on the deed to your house for all he knows, or ordered an inground pool to be built for your neighbors with the bill coming to you. You will never know unless you get a copy of the document, or an eviction notice, and you might need a lawyer to get that now if your neighbors don't want you to have it.

If your husband did sign as something other than a witness, you are going to need a lawyer to get out of it, since so much time has already elasped. The sooner you get on that the better.

RE: My husband signed a document without reading it

Asha — Sun, 22 Mar 2009 18:24:41 GMT

Hi shyandnaked. Not that you shouldn't be concerned, OronD is absolutely right in everything he said... Still, I've heard of this type of thing before, for instance when people Marry at a Court House... anyone can sign as wittnesses and be complete strangers, right in front of a Judge! When people change their names, even for children.. (I'm refering to the State of Illinois anyway)... people need "signers", a friend to sign as a wittness, and since they can't prove if this wittness is actually a friend or not, anyone could ask a complete stranger to Co-sign for them in changing a Child's name! I know, it seems so wrong, but with so many people, it's become more about following protocol.

George is right, this is what your Husband probably got caught up in, (to simply be a Wittness to the fact that these were your Neighbors for X amount of years, period). If it were anything more, I'm sure that what he was signing would have been explained to him in more detail.

Of course, get your Copies of what he signed. You are intitled to them because you're involved. But in my opinion you have nothing to worry about with this.

This is a great lesson for your Husband isn't it! Reguardless of what he might say to you, he knows it too!

See ya around Yedda! Keep us Posted on what happens alright?

RE: My husband signed a document without reading it

chucho — Sun, 22 Mar 2009 18:44:15 GMT

I agree with George, and ProfitBob - All your husband did was sign as a witness. if you are concerned; as ProfitBob said, just double-check that the line he signed said "Witness". As a witness, you don't have the obligation to read the document; only to verify that the person signing is wh o they say they are. The responsibility in that is normally just observing their picture ID - Driver's license. The notary will not emboss the document, without observing the document. I understand your nervousness, believe me.; but it should be fine.

RE: My husband signed a document without reading it

shyandnaked — Sun, 22 Mar 2009 19:44:27 GMT

Thanks to everyone for the great answers. Thumbs up to everyone. What a bunch of smart people. I can tell you all have your thinking caps on! love you all

RE: My husband signed a document without reading it

chucho — Sun, 22 Mar 2009 21:23:06 GMT

It is nice to have us around! I can't, but we can. Hope everyone's having a great Sunday.

RE: My husband signed a document without reading it

shyandnaked — Mon, 23 Mar 2009 00:37:51 GMT

Hi Everyone, Just an update on this. I spoke with my husband and he said he did not remember seeing the words "witness" above or below where he was to sign. His name was right under the neighbors' names. Red flag! I decided to email the online lawyer who is right there on duty. The guy I emailed had 25 years of law experience. He told me to ask to see a copy of the contract my husband signed today and if she could not produce it, to get a lawyer and send her a certified letter demanding a copy of the contract immediately. He said it is something to be concerned about b ut not to worry.....yet. But he said better to be safe than sorry. We are entitled to read what he signed. I emailed her and told her I needed to see a copy and she lied to me again. She said the company was local and now it is in California and Pa. She said she would try to get a copy for me and she called them today. I will give her till noon tomorrow and then I am getting a lawyer to send a certified letter demanding a copy per the online lawyer's advice. This may turn out to be innocent but she has changed her story a few times so I am a little nervous. Thanks for listening.

RE: My husband signed a document without reading it

DB Lady — Mon, 23 Mar 2009 03:25:11 GMT

Hi,

I don't blame you for being worried about this especially that your husband did not know what he signed for. If I were you, I'd be asking the lady until she showed you the paper that your husband signed.

Tell your husband that your worry is warranted. He could have signed something that you will be responsible for.

Take care.

RE: My husband signed a document without reading it

dweller — Mon, 23 Mar 2009 13:01:31 GMT

shyandnaked, you've gotten good advice from many good people, but as the story unfolds it's looking more and more like a scam. Particularly strange is your neighbor's claim that she doesn't have a copy of the document herself, even if the official copy is in process of being filed (somewhere.) I think you're completely justified in seeking help from a lawyer. If it is an innocent and above-board situation, your neighbor should have been more proactive in trying to allay your concerns- after all, she did impose upon your husband for his signature. Regarding lessons to be learned, I'm with Asha- your husband needs to stop signing any documents that he hasn't read first.

RE: My husband signed a document without reading it

profitbob — Mon, 23 Mar 2009 21:44:56 GMT

shyandnaked, your neighbor's story has changed too much, so you should presume you have been scammed until they can prove otherwise.

You need to do several things right now, as soon as possible. Contact your bank(s) and any credit companies and let them know you think you have been a victim of identity fraud. Make sure that a watch is put on your account and you are notified immediately of any attempts at withdrawals, loans, or charges in your name.

Contact your local register of deeds, and tell them the same thing. If anyone comes in to register a deed to your house or any kind of lien against it, this can be prevented.

Contact your state's attorney general office and let them know you suspect you are a victim of identity theft. Your neighbors may be known suspects or already on a watch list.

Contact your local police and tell them the whole story, too. They may or may not have other options for you to cut these people off before they get too far in their scam. They can also check to see if these neighbors have a criminal background or previous arrests for fraud.

Good luck. Speed is important, so act fast and cover yourself before whatever paperwork they have is fully processed.

RE: My husband signed a document without reading it

shyandnaked — Tue, 24 Mar 2009 11:59:50 GMT

Thanks profitbob. Here's how the current situation stands. I called 2 lawyers yesterday about this. One said that it sounded ok to him, but for my peace of mind, get a copy of the document. The other attorney ssid to give the woman 24 hour notice to show me the contract she signed. She said to tell the neighbor if she doesn't, I was going to contact the State Attorney General (see you're right on). I emailed the neighbor and told her just that. The neighbor emailed me and said "it was possible Fed Ex was delivering the paperwork any time now," and that I had the legal right to call my lawyer or the Attorney general. I emailed her back and said that "it is possible" is not good enough for me. I told her my lawyer said with today's technology she should be able to fax or email me a copy right now. I told her I felt I was getting the runaround. Well, in about half an hour or less, she called and my husband went over and she handed him a copy of just the signed paper with their names on it on the right hand side, and underneath each of their names it said "borrower." On the left hand side, it says: Signed, sealed, and delivered in the prescence of": and below it are the notary's signature and my husband's signature. My husband's signature happens to be on the sme line as the woman's name, to the left of her name. It does not say borrower under my husband's name. Now, this looks all well and good. My only problem with it is that there is another lie here. She first said he was signing a will to him, secondly, told me it was a transfer of property, and thirdly, now it lists them as borrowers on this contract. So apparantly, this is all about a loan they took out. My only problem (my husband does not feel the same way), is that now am I to wonder if this document is a fake as it is not the original and she lied so much? My husband said that because they are from another country, perhaps they were too proud to say they were taking out a loan. I don't want to push the issue if the copy before me is enough proof that my husband is a just a witness. I just am upset at the lies and the way she handled this. By the way, no Fed Ex truck came, so I assume she had the papers all along, or her notary emailed a copy to her. My husband has done some handyman work for them and he is a little embarrassed that I took these measures as now he said he lost a customer. I don't care about that, I care about being scammed by people we don't know who are moving in less than a year. Should I let it drop at this point, or what? I've lost respect for these people.

RE: My husband signed a document without reading it

George~ — Tue, 24 Mar 2009 12:51:38 GMT

Hi Shy, I am glad you seem to be getting closer to an answer. Thanks for the elephant and donkeys. Do ya have a bridge ?....hehe

This could be me, and my wife. I am like your husband and she, like you. Men are, more trusting I think.

I have to agree with ProfitBob about notifying your banks and such. Just as a precaution.

Lots of smart people here....Yedda at it's finest!!

Hope this all works out for you Shy, have a great day.....

George~

RE: My husband signed a document without reading it

shyandnaked — Tue, 24 Mar 2009 14:18:44 GMT

Hi George, No bridge, would a bag of peanuts help, lol? I agree, men seem to be more trusting in general. Why is that? I think women are more often victims than men are in society. Personally, I have been "burned" many times by people I trusted too much. Yes Yedda has many smart people here. I am blessed to have been able to be part of Yedda to get some good feedback on my problem. Thank you all so much. You have a good day too George. I'll have some sausage on that pizza this Friday, ok? hugs

RE: My husband signed a document without reading it

profitbob — Tue, 24 Mar 2009 19:43:13 GMT

shyandnaked, that seems like good news, but still, maybe you should stay suspicious a while longer until you see the original copy.

There are cultures in which it would be embarrassing or against religious laws to borrow money, so your husband has a point. Still, this doesn't excuse lying to you.

Your husband should let things die down a little, and then approach them in some way to let them know that he is still available to work for them if they need him. Nobody wants to apologize or admit wrong in the matter, so they all need a face saving way to get around it, or time to ignore it.

RE: My husband signed a document without reading it

shyandnaked — Tue, 24 Mar 2009 22:21:34 GMT

thanks profitbob. My neighbors are Muslims from India and have been here a while. Both are well educated professionals. I see alot of pride in them, so perhaps they didn't want us to know they were borrowing money. I actually called the place where they were doing business with and got information that they re-financed. To me, I would have had no problem telling someone that if I was asking them to be a witness. The company did tell me my husband's name would have been throughout the document if he were a co-signer, but I never saw the document. I doubt my neighbor would show it to me at this point. The company did tell me not to worry, my husband was just a witness. I got the notary's name on the page my husband signed and checked him as well, and he seems to have a good record. So, I am more at peace, just a little irked at the neighbors for not being more honest upfront. They always seemed to like my husband, and my husband has no anger towards them so maybe he will be asked to work for them again. Like you said, let time pass by a little. I guess my husband and I both learned once again, to read and ask what is being signed. Thanks so much!

RE: My husband signed a document without reading it

profitbob — Wed, 25 Mar 2009 00:42:55 GMT

shyandnaked, well, you seemed to have solved the mystery. Muslims have a lot of restrictions on how they can borrow/loan money and who they can borrow it from. So it is understandable that they were embarrassed. Of course, they didn't have a clue that none of this stuff is known to you, and that you wouldn't have cared less about the loan. Or they have money troubles requiring the loan which would also be embarassing.

They feel they have shamed themselves in your eyes and were covering up their guilt, not knowing that it made them look even guiltier and less moral in your eyes. It is amusing when different cultures meet. Innocent misunderstandings become major conflicts because of lack of understanding how the other sees things.

If your husband wants to get past this quickly, you could invite them over for dinner (making sure you serve a hallal/kosher meal). That way no one would feel the other was holding a grudge or had hard feelings.

RE: My husband signed a document without reading it

dweller — Wed, 25 Mar 2009 01:25:34 GMT

Shyandnaked, it does look like more of a cultural misunderstanding than a deliberate attempt to take advantage of you. I think profitbob's earlier advice to contact the Register of Deeds is a good idea, for your own protection. On the flipside, these are probably good people who are experiencing the recession just like most of the rest of us, and if you can find a way to personally get past this with them you will be better for it. Usury, or lending money with interest, is a much stronger social taboo in Muslim societies, so it is understandable that they would be secretive about it. I hope you can repair any bridges that need to be mended.

RE: My husband signed a document without reading it

shyandnaked — Wed, 25 Mar 2009 05:28:05 GMT

Dweller and profitbob, I understand what you are saying about cultural differences. However, they have lived in this country for a long while and are both retired and very well educated professionals and I am sure they have decent pensions together. They seem to live frugally but have a nice home. She goes out constantly and seems to live a full life. For all we know, they may have refinanced to buy other property or for the advantage of claiming tax deductions on a remortgage. With lack of communication, we have no idea. I would be guessing their bank accounts are bigger than ours. Even with cultural differences, I don't feel that lying to a neighbor you want favors and friendship from is acceptable. Lying is lying in any culture. Pride does not excuse lying. I had them over at the holiday and we had a nice time and they seemed to enjoy the food we put out without any religious or cultural restrictions. I think they and their children are quite Americanized. I still do not have complete peace that the deal was 100 percent legitimate as we don't know them that well and we never saw the original papers. I am more at peace after checking on a few things. Frankly, with the sleepless nights they gave me over this deal with their story changing constantly, I think she should come over bearing fruits of good tidings. I do not hold any grudges over this as I can accept their not wanting us to know of their loan. However, she is an extremely intelligent woman with a master's degree and she should have known that it was proper to explain what he was signing or she should have asked one of her children to be there. She may be dealing with her religious and cultural issues, but I am also dealing with many issues where I was burned by trusting certain people. Just my opinion. I thank you both for your input. It was helpful. I guess I will have to read up on their culture so I can understand them better.